ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Northhighland]

You are never going to get that and even if someone says 19th May 2022, what difference will it make? The reality needs to be dealt with. The programme is and has not delivered.

Reluctantly I have to agree with you. The focus seems to have been on the Wabtec issue, but we are now seeing trains in service that we don't seem to be able to get anywhere near the reliability that GWR could get out of them a few short months ago. Scotrail don't seem to be able to get the training complete, something surely that could have been sorted much earlier, bikes and reservations seems to be a problem that could be fixed, but they seem incapable of doing so.

Looks like a project out of control irrespective of Wabtec. There is a reality here that nothing is actually getting better with introduction of the HST. Which is a shame, since the product is fine when running. I also wonder would we be any better if we had gone for new, seeing the 800 issues, the mk5 coach issues, 385 issues, new seems far from a certain path.

 

[Highland37]

Reluctantly I have to agree with you also. There is no quick solution and there appears to be two very general schools of thought.

1. Persist with the current programme and work hard for an improvement and delivery schedule that is vaguely credible.
2. Do what is required to get through to the point that HSTs can be replaced (not with more well used units such as 158s and 170s).

Neither of those provides any certainty for the future. I think the reality is that we are reaping the rewards of decades of under investment and low expectations of a ancient railway which is well past its best.

Personally I would have a continual programme of electrification and a bi-mode order such as the 755 to get us to the point of using the wires. HSTs will never enter full service as they are in no state to do so.

 

[Northhighland]

Reluctantly I have to agree with you also. There is no quick solution and there appears to be two very general schools of thought.

1. Persist with the current programme and work hard for an improvement and delivery schedule that is vaguely credible.
2. Do what is required to get through to the point that HSTs can be replaced (not with more well used units such as 158s and 170s).

Neither of those provides any certainty for the future. I think the reality is that we are reaping the rewards of decades of under investment and low expectations of a ancient railway which is well past its best.

Personally I would have a continual programme of electrification and a bi-mode order such as the 755 to get us to the point of using the wires. HSTs will never enter full service as they are in no state to do so.

Seems sensible, they don't seem to be mutually exclusive options. We need to understand why the service provided by HST is so unreliable, given the success of the GWR castle introduction. Recognising that both projects are reusing stock that was until conversion delivering reliable daily service from GWR and in case of the castles are still doing so. Something not right at all here, even allowing a little for GWR cherry picking the best stock.

I agree a discussion needs to be had on what replaces them and when. Given our current track record at introducing new trains surely be better to use one of the solutions in progress?

 

[GusB]

Seems sensible, they don't seem to be mutually exclusive options. We need to understand why the service provided by HST is so unreliable, given the success of the GWR castle introduction. Recognising that both projects are reusing stock that was until conversion delivering reliable daily service from GWR and in case of the castles are still doing so. Something not right at all here, even allowing a little for GWR cherry picking the best stock.

I agree a discussion needs to be had on what replaces them and when. Given our current track record at introducing new trains surely be better to use one of the solutions in progress?

There was a new thread created for such discussion, and you'll find it here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotrail-hst-alternative-provision.175454/

You may also find this one useful:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/should-scotrail-have-gone-for-68s-rather-than-hsts.185894/

 

[hexagon789]

You are never going to get that and even if someone says 19th May 2022, what difference will it make?

None. None have been met thus far, so why would anyone newly set dates. Yeah, I can see that now.

The programme is and has not delivered.

I think I didn't want to accept it, but I now have to concede - it may never be.

 

[jamieintercity]

Another pair of PCs are going to loughborough today

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00645/2019/08/07/advanced

 

[43096]

Another pair of PCs are going to loughborough today

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00645/2019/08/07/advanced

43126/135 going in. Just 43142/144 left to go.

 

[Northhighland]

Another pair of PCs are going to loughborough today

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00645/2019/08/07/advanced

Are those in the know convinced that the work done at Brush is what is adequate? Is there more work needing done to improve reliability?

 

[jamieintercity]

Could this be HA20 tomorrow?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00061/2019/08/09/advanced

 

[InOban]

Fingers crossed.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Sorry but there's no way Scotrail will abandon the programme now (I'm pretty sure of it) - they've spent energy, time and money getting these trains running.

To stop everything and make passengers suffer with short DMU's whilst new trains are being ordered is not the answer.

If it comes to it, I'd rather travel First Class in a GWR-spec HST from Edinburgh to Aberdeen next year than no HST at all - meaning yes, with the GWR First Class interiors Scotrail are keeping, I'd like to see the Scotrail carpet and the Inter7city leaflets and odd branding inside but there are some things I'd rather.

I can see far too many complaints going to Scotrail if these trains are withdrawn before they've completed the work

 

[Highland37]

"These trains" are hardly running. They are either out of service or there are not enough trained staff. The situation you mention re short DMU is already normal.

I can't see many complaints if HSTs are withdrawn as there are hardly any in service.

 

[RLBH]

Could this be HA20 tomorrow?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00061/2019/08/09/advanced

If so, and it looks like it is (assuming it runs...), then this delivery is in line with the one set per month plan.

 

[Northhighland]

"These trains" are hardly running. They are either out of service or there are not enough trained staff. The situation you mention re short DMU is already normal.

I can't see many complaints if HSTs are withdrawn as there are hardly any in service.

Think the expectation of an improved service exists amongst passengers. To row back from that publicly would be difficult, politically very difficult.

Whatever happens in the short term we need to get the sets we have running as reliably as the GWR Castle sets.

This should be achievable. There must be some understanding of why reliability is so bad. Surely some help can be brought in to get to a stable state?

Think the management of this project needs looked at, are there enough of the right people in place to make this work. Also why is the training taking an eternity? Surely that can be speeded up?

 

[Highland37]

Think the expectation of an improved service exists amongst passengers. To row back from that publicly would be difficult, politically very difficult.

Whatever happens in the short term we need to get the sets we have running as reliably as the GWR Castle sets.

This should be achievable. There must be some understanding of why reliability is so bad. Surely some help can be brought in to get to a stable state?

Think the management of this project needs looked at, are there enough of the right people in place to make this work. Also why is the training taking an eternity? Surely that can be speeded up?

A variety of practical issues (the trains are ancient), the refurb is glacially slow, the management is abysmal, the infrastructure is decades out of date and there aren't enough staff) coupled with nostalgia and a denial culture which no matter what, seems to relish in vague statements such as "by all accounts these are good trains" and an avoidance of reality.

 

[BRX]

Seems like the HSTs are getting some of the blame that should really be directed at the project management instead.

Those calling for the project to be abandoned - what would that even mean? Even if a load of new stock was procured now, it would be several years before it could come into service. The only option is to replace the HSTs a bit earlier than otherwise would have been hoped. But in the meantime they just have to get them all into service as soon as possible, and get them running as reliably as is possible.

 

[Highland37]

Do you think they are not trying that?

 

[BRX]

Do you think they are not trying that?

Obviously that's what they are trying to do. What I'm saying is there's not really any other option. Abandoning the project at this stage, as I see it, is not an option.

 

[Highland37]

No one is suggesting abandoning it. Just accepting that it is never going to deliver as planned and create plans to replace the HSTs at the earliest opportunity.

Continuing with a plan that has not delivered will just continue the current farce.

 

[Northhighland]

A variety of practical issues (the trains are ancient), the refurb is glacially slow, the management is abysmal, the infrastructure is decades out of date and there aren't enough staff) coupled with nostalgia and a denial culture which no matter what, seems to relish in vague statements such as "by all accounts these are good trains" and an avoidance of reality.

Issue is that GWR are doing the same thing and making it work. So ScotRail can as well

New trains are 5+ years away at best. So think effort has to be at making what we have work.

 

[fishquinn]

"These trains" are hardly running. They are either out of service or there are not enough trained staff. The situation you mention re short DMU is already normal.

I can't see many complaints if HSTs are withdrawn as there are hardly any in service.

All 11 booked HST diagrams are covered by HST today. I agree that the situation regarding refurbs isn't good but you're making it sound worse than it is with classic availability.

 

[Northhighland]

All 11 booked HST diagrams are covered by HST today. I agree that the situation regarding refurbs isn't good but you're making it sound worse than it is with classic availability.

That is good news, thanks for posting that. But to put that in perspective, how many sets do we currently have in Scotland, and how many are working and how many are currently out of action? Are all refurbs in passenger service or are some still on training duty? Will the additional HST services due in August actually happen?

Sorry for all the questions, but good to get some facts as opposed to supposition.

 

[scotraildriver]

There are 11 diagrams at present and most days(including today) they are running HSTs as booked. Mostly on Aberdeens. We have 18 sets, 11 of which are in use each day. There is still training on going and will be for a while. An HST course for a driver takes 3 weeks and realistically you can only train maybe 2 or 3 people at a time (per depot)without causing cancellations of other work at the depot. Add to that the depot driving instructors being needed for HSTs and it puts great pressure on everyone else. Depots operate with the required number of staff to cover the work. There aren't loads of spare people anywhere, so taking people out for training can easily affect other things. That is why it takes a long time. There are several hundred people requiring a course, not to mention all the new recruits. It's a massive job made a the worse by a large number of people going to work at Transpennine. Also, due to the late delivery of refurbs everyone needs additional training on classics which amounts to hundreds more hours which wasnt in the plan.It is going to take a long time.

 

[Northhighland]

There are 11 diagrams at present and most days(including today) they are running HSTs as booked. Mostly on Aberdeens. We have 18 sets, 11 of which are in use each day. There is still training on going and will be for a while. An HST course for a driver takes 3 weeks and realistically you can only train maybe 2 or 3 people at a time (per depot)without causing cancellations of other work at the depot. Add to that the depot driving instructors being needed for HSTs and it puts great pressure on everyone else. Depots operate with the required number of staff to cover the work. There aren't loads of spare people anywhere, so taking people out for training can easily affect other things. That is why it takes a long time. There are several hundred people requiring a course, not to mention all the new recruits. It's a massive job made a the worse by a large number of people going to work at Transpennine. Also, due to the late delivery of refurbs everyone needs additional training on classics which amounts to hundreds more hours which wasnt in the plan.It is going to take a long time.

Thanks, I see that the training is a huge issue, also needs to be done in a way that can deliver additional services, so I can see that is complex. However surely this has been going on for well over a year now, we must be at the tipping point soon where there are more trained staff than untrained? Surely we must get to a point where more HST services, Classic or refurb, can be introduced?

As far as I can see from the outside looking in, frontline staff are under pressure the whole time with the current situation. It must be awful for train crew to be on a replacement 158 and take the stress that involves. I have been on several booked 170's on the HML this summer and the usual overcrowding happens with luggage everywhere and people standing. Lots of grumpy passengers cant be nice for the crew. Surely the current situation must be the worst of all worlds for staff?

 

[scotraildriver]

More people are trained than untrained. You need to remember though an HST can only work a diagram if EVERYONE on that diagram is trained. 3 return trips to Aberdeen could requires as many as 12 drivers, 12 guards and catering crew, assuming a crew change en route, all trained. If one goes sick or gets displaced by a delay elsewhere and can't be covered the whole diagram needs covered by a 170. Multiply that by 11 diagrams and that's over 250 staff, every one who has to be trained. Then on top all that HST courses last year were cancelled so staff could be trained on Class 365s due to the late 385s. It's just a huge and complex task but it is starting to top out now.

 

[hexagon789]

All 11 booked HST diagrams are covered by HST today. I agree that the situation regarding refurbs isn't good but you're making it sound worse than it is with classic availability.

That is excellent

 

[Paul Kerr]

That is excellent

Yes agreed, from some of the posts on here it sounds like the sky is falling which seems like a major overreaction

It sounds like some of the issues coming up are due to training and lack of familiarity with the trains, which is unfortunate. We haven't heard much from @jingsmonty recently; I'm curious what the state of play is with getting crews up to speed with the new trains.

 

[Paul Kerr]

There are 11 diagrams at present and most days(including today) they are running HSTs as booked. Mostly on Aberdeens. We have 18 sets, 11 of which are in use each day. There is still training on going and will be for a while. An HST course for a driver takes 3 weeks and realistically you can only train maybe 2 or 3 people at a time (per depot)without causing cancellations of other work at the depot. Add to that the depot driving instructors being needed for HSTs and it puts great pressure on everyone else. Depots operate with the required number of staff to cover the work. There aren't loads of spare people anywhere, so taking people out for training can easily affect other things. That is why it takes a long time. There are several hundred people requiring a course, not to mention all the new recruits. It's a massive job made a the worse by a large number of people going to work at Transpennine. Also, due to the late delivery of refurbs everyone needs additional training on classics which amounts to hundreds more hours which wasnt in the plan.It is going to take a long time.

Thanks for the update. I wasn't aware of ScotRail losing staff to TPE. Are ScotRail suffering from staff shortages as a result of this? With the current rate of training when do you anticipate crews being fully up to speed?

 

[Highlandspring]

I’m hearing today that West Highland Line anniversary trip is definitely off thanks to the washaway between Ardlui and Crianlarich.

 

[gingertom]

What I find odd is that the GWR HST GTI's seem to have been well received & with minimal issues
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-to-operate-short-hstgti-sets.145727/

Yet in Scotland a similar project seems to have imploded - could it be that in the case of GWR they have had many years experience with the stock and know how to keep on top of problems?

I reckon GWR has kept the cream of the crop and Scotland got the dregs.