ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Northhighland]

I've just been on my first trip on a refurb, from Edinburgh to Perth. I travelled in first class, which is very nice, but I had a good nose around in standard before we set off.

Honest opinion? Decidedly underwhelming. For all the hassle and inconvenience, the improvement over previous stock really isn't that great. Fine, there's more seats, but this is still an old train, and as soon as it starts moving, you notice.

Jerky acceleration, and that horrible squeaking and clattering from the bogies and gangways, is still a problem. I also find the suspension on HSTs far too soft compared to modern stock, and it results in a constant slight bounciness I really don't like.

Only a marginal improvement over the 170s, I reckon, unless you're in first. Really not buying into all the hype right now.

As regular traveller on the HML they are the best way of getting to Edinburgh or Glasgow. Way ahead of the 170 no blast of cold air at every station and better than the azuma . Very well received by most passengers. Not just train spotters. Just need to get them performing reliably and that seems to be improving.

 

[Speed43125]

I've just been on my first trip on a refurb, from Edinburgh to Perth. I travelled in first class, which is very nice, but I had a good nose around in standard before we set off.

Honest opinion? Decidedly underwhelming. For all the hassle and inconvenience, the improvement over previous stock really isn't that great. Fine, there's more seats, but this is still an old train, and as soon as it starts moving, you notice.

Jerky acceleration, and that horrible squeaking and clattering from the bogies and gangways, is still a problem. I also find the suspension on HSTs far too soft compared to modern stock, and it results in a constant slight bounciness I really don't like.

Only a marginal improvement over the 170s, I reckon, unless you're in first. Really not buying into all the hype right now.

yes, the gangway connections seem to squeak a bit, but complaining about Mk.3 ride? far superior to the shuddering you get on the turbostars whenever they accelerate.

 

[Journeyman]

yes, the gangway connections seem to squeak a bit, but complaining about Mk.3 ride? far superior to the shuddering you get on the turbostars whenever they accelerate.

Yup. The Mark 3 ride is not actually that good.

There. I'm a heretic.

 

[Speed43125]

Yup. The Mark 3 ride is not actually that good.

There. I'm a heretic.

Sacrilege! The gods of Rail Forums will decide your fate!!!
Out of interest, what were you last in when you took the HST?

 

[Journeyman]

Sacrilege! The gods of Rail Forums will decide your fate!!!
Out of interest, what were you last in when you took the HST?

Previous train journey was the Borders Railway, out on a 158, back on a 170. Both of those ride much better, I reckon. I think Azumas do too.

 

[47271]

I've just been on my first trip on a refurb, from Edinburgh to Perth. I travelled in first class, which is very nice, but I had a good nose around in standard before we set off.

Honest opinion? Decidedly underwhelming. For all the hassle and inconvenience, the improvement over previous stock really isn't that great. Fine, there's more seats, but this is still an old train, and as soon as it starts moving, you notice.

Jerky acceleration, and that horrible squeaking and clattering from the bogies and gangways, is still a problem. I also find the suspension on HSTs far too soft compared to modern stock, and it results in a constant slight bounciness I really don't like.

Only a marginal improvement over the 170s, I reckon, unless you're in first. Really not buying into all the hype right now.

What hype? That died more than a year ago, it's more like a laughing stock.

The project is a farce and, like you, I would rather have seen new trains, but I think that this is an unduly harsh appraisal of travel in a refurbed set.

The only criticism I recognise is gangway noise. At least there is some discernable acceleration. And, speaking as a mk5 sleeper and regular Azuma user, I'd rather have the dreamy ride of a mk3 below 100mph over all that knocking and jiggling that seems to be in vogue on new stock at the moment.

There's nothing wrong with the travelling environment, when it's finally delivered. That doesn't mean that I think that the HSTs were the right choice, or that I think that they'll prove to be reliable in service. But claiming that the experience is underwhelming compared to a 170 is a bit strong I think.

 

[Journeyman]

What hype? That died more than a year ago, it's more like a laughing stock.

The project is a farce and, like you, I would rather have seen new trains, but I think that this is an unduly harsh appraisal of travel in a refurbed set.

The only criticism I recognise is gangway noise. At least there is some discernable acceleration. And, speaking as a mk5 sleeper and regular Azuma user, I'd rather have the dreamy ride of a mk3 below 100mph over all that knocking and jiggling that seems to be in vogue on new stock at the moment.

There's nothing wrong with the travelling environment, when it's finally delivered. That doesn't mean that I think that the HSTs were the right choice, or that I think that they'll prove to be reliable in service. But claiming that the experience is underwhelming compared to a 170 is a bit strong I think.

Well, to be fair, first class is very nice indeed, and if I happen to be going to Inverness anytime soon, I'll happily fork out to upgrade. Standard, though, seemed surprisingly dirty, and given that GWR previously managed to completely ruin HST standard class interiors, I'm not convinced ScotRail have done anywhere near enough to improve them, although the airline/table mix seems better.

I just think the hassle we've been through to get here just isn't worth it. I doubt reliability is going to improve much, and the fundamental problems of an old design aren't going to go away.

 

[hexagon789]

The Mark 3 ride is not actually that good.

It would be fairer to say it's not as good as it was, because certain original components are no longer manufactured and because track quality isn't as good on mainlines as it was either.

It's still better than everything in ScotRail's fleet (158s not far behind though) and most things on rails in this country!

 

[InOban]

I recall that a post a few weeks ago said that one of the refurbished sets had gone to Brodie's for a C exam. Has it reappeared? and if so, has it improved the ride? After all, Wabtec were only working above the solebar, and weren't touching anything which would affect the ride

 

[Northhighland]

Well, to be fair, first class is very nice indeed, and if I happen to be going to Inverness anytime soon, I'll happily fork out to upgrade. Standard, though, seemed surprisingly dirty, and given that GWR previously managed to completely ruin HST standard class interiors, I'm not convinced ScotRail have done anywhere near enough to improve them, although the airline/table mix seems better.

I just think the hassle we've been through to get here just isn't worth it. I doubt reliability is going to improve much, and the fundamental problems of an old design aren't going to go away.

At the risk of going over and over the same debate, many would agree that if we had the benefit of hindsight the original decision was flawed, seriously flawed. However we cant go back in time and the decision has been made and substantial funds been invested. When the refurbs are out and running they are a decent product, the vast majority of the travelling public like them and are blissfully unaware of the problems blighting the project.

If the reliability can be improved as the Scotrail teams get to grips with looking after what is a substantially different beast to the 170, there are signs this is happening. Didn't recognise the interior concerns you had the ones I have travelled on were fine, I always use standard class. Significantly more comfortable than the new LNER Azuma.

The HST is here to stay on the northern routes, Scotrail just have to make it work.

 

[asm0909]

I've lost the context of progress on the HST programme. I read all the stats on units delivered, diagrammmes worked etc: could someone in the know tell me the other side of the coin; particularly, how many more diagrammes will be handed over to HSTs? It would be encouraging to see that figure heading towards zero.......

 

[Highland37]

I think 10 units have been delivered, less than half, and the pace is getting slower. There is significant issues with them such as the very badly designed bike spaces, the lower bike capacity, the terrible lighting, the buffet rarely being open (due to failure to recruit I guess) and them being the least reliable train in Scotland.

But apart from that, the general travelling environment is better than the 170s but not a huge step up.

 

[Clansman]

But apart from that, the general travelling environment is better than the 170s

Is that the first positive thing you've had to say on the project so far?

 

[Robnw67]

Hi I hope you don't mind a couple of questions from a complete outsider to the rail industry (other than being a passenger), so here goes:
1) There doesn't seem to be much room for large luggage. Where would that be expected to fit.
2) For the coach that has the three wheelchair spaces: why is the disabled toiled at the opposite end of the coach? My cousin uses a motorised wheelchair and it would be too large to run through the aisle of seats.
Any comments gratefully received....

 

[hexagon789]

Hi I hope you don't mind a couple of questions from a complete outsider to the rail industry (other than being a passenger), so here goes:
1) There doesn't seem to be much room for large luggage. Where would that be expected to fit.
2) For the coach that has the three wheelchair spaces: why is the disabled toiled at the opposite end of the coach? My cousin uses a motorised wheelchair and it would be too large to run through the aisle of seats.
Any comments gratefully received....

Is that in the Classic or Refurbished sets? I'm fairly certain the seating plan for the refurbs has the wheelchair spaces adjacent to the accessible toilet.

 

[Northhighland]

I think 10 units have been delivered, less than half, and the pace is getting slower. There is significant issues with them such as the very badly designed bike spaces, the lower bike capacity, the terrible lighting, the buffet rarely being open (due to failure to recruit I guess) and them being the least reliable train in Scotland.

But apart from that, the general travelling environment is better than the 170s but not a huge step up.

The bike issue affects a small minority of passengers. A very small minority. While I can appreciate that for those people that is annoying it is no reason to decry the whole project a disaster.

Your other points are operational more than physical. I like the lighting have no issue with it. I particularly like the fact the whole thing doesn’t vibrate and rattle as the 170’s do.

They are what they are 40 year old trains given bc a spruce up.

 

[Robnw67]

Is that in the Classic or Refurbished sets? I'm fairly certain the seating plan for the refurbs has the wheelchair spaces adjacent to the accessible toilet.

Apologies, I may not have read the drawings correctly. I've only just noticed that the post is quite an old one, so information might have moved on since then.

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies, I may not have read the drawings correctly. I've only just noticed that the post is quite an old one, so information might have moved on since then.

No worries, if you want there are seating plans on the very first page of this thread to give an idea. The ex-GWR "Classic" sets may well be so arranged in the Standard Class accessible coaches, the Refurbished sets aren't.

 

[Highland37]

The bike issue affects a small minority of passengers. A very small minority. While I can appreciate that for those people that is annoying it is no reason to decry the whole project a disaster.

Too right. The railway is so poor at carrying bikes that the numbers are falling who try to use it. Avoid as the service is so poor.

I am currently on the HST back-up train. The HST from Inverness to Edinburgh hasn't made an appearance so it's the 170 again. Whilst I am no fan of the 170, it must be about a thousand times easier to operate than Scotland's most unreliable train.

 

[47271]

Hi I hope you don't mind a couple of questions from a complete outsider to the rail industry (other than being a passenger), so here goes:
1) There doesn't seem to be much room for large luggage. Where would that be expected to fit.
2) For the coach that has the three wheelchair spaces: why is the disabled toiled at the opposite end of the coach? My cousin uses a motorised wheelchair and it would be too large to run through the aisle of seats.
Any comments gratefully received....

Standard Class refurbs have a few quite substantial gaps between seat backs which, I assume, are intended to house large luggage. I've certainly put my suitcase there a few times. If they aren't then the design is a spectacular waste of room - dead space at the back of the seat and limited legroom at the front.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Standard Class refurbs have a few quite substantial gaps between seat backs which, I assume, are intended to house large luggage. I've certainly put my suitcase there a few times. If they aren't then the design is a spectacular waste of room - dead space at the back of the seat and limited legroom at the front.

Those gaps have always been very handy (and intended) large luggage space. One of the hidden losses of airline seating is the loss of space for luggage that doesn’t mean raising it above your head. Storage space at the coach ends hasn’t increased to compensate and of course what there is means you are separated from your luggage, which increases the risk of theft.

 

[47271]

Those gaps have always been very handy (and intended) large luggage space. One of the hidden losses of airline seating is the loss of space for luggage that doesn’t mean raising it above your head. Storage space at the coach ends hasn’t increased to compensate and of course what there is means you are separated from your luggage, which increases the risk of theft.

I'm not sure if we're at cross purposes here, your reference to the introduction of airline seating suggests that we might be. I don't mean the usual space available between back to back seats, that has always been there, mk2 overhead racks had the message 'Additional luggage space is available between the seat backs' after all.

What I'm referring to is the additional gap they've put in on the Standard Class Scotrail refurbs, to the extent that there can be a foot or more of dead space between the tops of the seat backs, never mind at floor level.

 

[JohnR]

Is that in the Classic or Refurbished sets? I'm fairly certain the seating plan for the refurbs has the wheelchair spaces adjacent to the accessible toilet.

Seems operators cant get anything right. One big complaint I've seen is that the disabled spaces are next to the disabled toilet. So when they're put at the opposite end of the coach, theres complaints.

 

[route101]

Seen a Scotrail HST with seat reservation labels , i thought they abolished them when service could be different types?

 

[hexagon789]

Seen a Scotrail HST with seat reservation labels , i thought they abolished them when service could be different types?

I'd thought so too

 

[47271]

Seen a Scotrail HST with seat reservation labels , i thought they abolished them when service could be different types?

Definitely no reservations on Scotrail at the moment.

Probably old ones because it had been sat at Haymarket for weeks and then not cleaned properly.

 

[Highland37]

I had a great journey on the refurb from Edinburgh to Inverness yesterday. It made me think that the refurbs are good for some, poorer for others. I had a table bay to myself so my knees didn't rub the person opposite as the tables are too close. The journey was much quieter than a unit but the ride is much worse. The lights are ok as long as you turn them down and I reckon Scotrail might get wise to passengers doing this soon. Bikes spaces are awful and designed by the incompetent. However, for a lone, able bodied passenger willing to change the lights, they are pretty good. Shame Wabtec are such a joke though.

 

[Geoff DC]

The lights are ok as long as you turn them down and I reckon Scotrail might get wise to passengers doing this soon.

GWR staff always had them on low setting so no reason to have full blast on Scotrail once staff are familiar

 

[Stathern Jc]

GWR staff always had them on low setting so no reason to have full blast on Scotrail once staff are familiar

But how long should it take to get the hang of something that ought to be straightforward, and which you might expect to be part of the basic training before staff are allowed to take this stock out on the line??

 

[47271]

Well, I'm on one at the moment which is on the half setting.

This is after we were plunged into complete darkness four or five times in the wilds of Fife.