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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Northhighland

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It is good news, just a shame that the demand is not likely to return for some time to make them the success they surely deserve to be. The maintenance teams seem to be getting on top of them as well and reliability isn't an issue anything like it was.
 

sdrennan

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what is the rationale for having both 4 and 5 car sets. How will they decide. Are the 4's going to be limited to Aberdeen-Inverness?
 

Scotrail88

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what is the rationale for having both 4 and 5 car sets. How will they decide. Are the 4's going to be limited to Aberdeen-Inverness?

looks like 4 or 5 units required for Aberdeen to Inverness unless an increase is due which might take up the units plus spare
 

Paul Kerr

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I noticed ScotRail's reply to a question on the 5 car sets on the above Twitter feed; they stated that the plan still is to have 17 5-car sets and 9 4-car. There was some talk of all 26 eventually being upgraded t 5 coaches but it looks like that won't be happening after all. That's unfortunate as it would help operational flexibility as well as ensuring more seating capacity...
 

Goldromans

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There was some talk of all 26 eventually being upgraded t 5 coaches but it looks like that won't be happening after all.
I wouldn’t read too much into this. I don’t think the social media team are privy to these details, and even if they are they wouldn’t be allowed to share it publicly until it was confirmed.
 

Highland37

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I am on my first train for months. Inverness to Glasgow. It's a 2-car 158 with the usual loud (65db according to my phone) "air conditioning" (it's a fan!). I can't see social distancing being possible once we stop at a few more stations... HST please.
 

scotraildriver

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I am on my first train for months. Inverness to Glasgow. It's a 2-car 158 with the usual loud (65db according to my phone) "air conditioning" (it's a fan!). I can't see social distancing being possible once we stop at a few more stations... HST please.
Well it SHOULD have been an HST. Signal fault at Huntly (possible cabletheft/vandalism) scuppered that!
 

Clansman

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I am on my first train for months. Inverness to Glasgow. It's a 2-car 158 with the usual loud (65db according to my phone) "air conditioning" (it's a fan!). I can't see social distancing being possible once we stop at a few more stations... HST please.
I've missed your journey complaints! :D
 

hexagon789

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what is the rationale for having both 4 and 5 car sets. How will they decide. Are the 4's going to be limited to Aberdeen-Inverness?

No specifically as there's far more than required for that route and it's not getting a fully HST service anyway; I would assume the 4-car were for Inverness workings but arguably those need as much capacity as Aberdeens particularly given the lesser frequency
 

Clansman

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Thanks. Looks like a full 170/158 operation today. 2x 170 sighted but nae HSTs!
Surprised 158s are still making it up to Inverness solo from the central belt these days. Not heard of that happening since December 2018 or whenever a double 158 was reduced due to faults.

Must be a covid-19 thing surely?

No specifically as there's far more than required for that route and it's not getting a fully HST service anyway; I would assume the 4-car were for Inverness workings but arguably those need as much capacity as Aberdeens particularly given the lesser frequency
The original plan was 5-car fixed on all Aberdeen-Edinburgh workings, with the remaining 4 and 5 sets rotating between the rest demand permitting.

I wouldn't say that what's being provided is "far more than required for that route", given a 4-car permanent on Inverness-Aberdeen is unsustainable without so called 'balances' on the Aberdeen locals, given most recently the timetable had a maximum of 14 x 23m carriages (the diagram of which utilises a unit from an ex Glasgow working) working from Aberdeen to Inverurie in one single hour. A 4-car refurb HST has fewer seats than a double 158, so any ideas of fixing formations for Aberdeen-Inverness services will yield nothing but peak time overcrowdings so long as the locals have no increase in service frequencies or capacity.
 
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Highland37

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The Perth to Glasgow service is a double 170. Clearly the HSTs must be having a rest but one has just gone north on the Inverness service.
 

swaldman

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what is the rationale for having both 4 and 5 car sets. How will they decide. Are the 4's going to be limited to Aberdeen-Inverness?

I believe the original reason for the mixture was that 5+2 wouldn't fit into Queen St.
I don't know whether that is still the case.
Given that the 4-car sets don't, IIRC, have any more std class seats than a 3-car 170, they do seem to be a limited "upgrade" to me.
 

Clansman

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5+2s fit in to every platform at Queen Street bar platform 1. The only difference is that the ability is lost to put sets on the tail end of another terminating service infront of it, which is probably where the difficulties come from. There was never any plan to fix all Glasgow services as 4+2 anyway, and since there has been a number of 6 car DMU services before from Queen Street in recent times, it's difficult to see how on earth that would have been a deciding factor. Most certainly, it wasn't.
 

47271

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The Perth to Glasgow service is a double 170. Clearly the HSTs must be having a rest but one has just gone north on the Inverness service.
Since May HML services have been roughly half and half HSTs versus units, and to be fair, by the looks of things very reliably so in line with diagrams. Given that most services have had three or four passengers on board until now, you could accomplish social distancing in an old brake van towed by the Inverness depot shunter never mind a 158.

I'm a lot more interested in what's going to be available to us with the December timetable change. Will there be enough HSTs to sustain improved timings by then, or are we going to have to wait until 2021 for the Highlands to properly benefit from this project?
 

Northhighland

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I believe the original reason for the mixture was that 5+2 wouldn't fit into Queen St.
I don't know whether that is still the case.
Given that the 4-car sets don't, IIRC, have any more std class seats than a 3-car 170, they do seem to be a limited "upgrade" to me.
If you do the journey in winter to Inverness in a 170 you wouldn’t make that comment.
 

hexagon789

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And of course the journey quality it much improved, which is equally important on long-distance journeys.

It was always my understanding that was as much the aim as increasing capacity and the 2+5 sets would offer more of a boost still of course
 

Stathern Jc

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And of course the journey quality it much improved, which is equally important on long-distance journeys.
Also on the longer journeys, if the mini buffet is to operate as originally hoped for when normality returns, it will be a significant improvement to know that you can get a cup of coffee that is hot and have the option of a snack beyond that which can be carried on a trolley and likely to be sold out anyway.
(I always thought there was a big opportunity for improvement missed when the 170s from Hull Trains moved North.)
I have a lot of sympathy for the trolley staff who aren't given the resources to provide a service suitable for journeys of over a couple of hours, and certainly well short of what many passengers hope for and would make use of on the longer journeys.
 
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route101

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Also on the longer journeys, if the mini buffet is to operate as originally hoped for when normality returns, it will be a significant improvement to know that you can get a cup of coffee that is hot and have the option of a snack beyond that which can be carried on a trolley and likely to be sold out anyway.
(I always thought there was a big opportunity for improvement missed when the 170s from Hull Trains moved North.)
I have a lot of sympathy for the trolley staff who aren't given the resources to provide a service suitable for journeys of over a couple of hours, and certainly well short of what many passengers hope for and would make use of on the longer journeys.

I think the problem with the buffet on HSTs is staffing. The single catering person has to do the trolley and buffet.

To me the HSTs are a step on 170s , which felt like a commuter train !
 

DB

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I think the problem with the buffet on HSTs is staffing. The single catering person has to do the trolley and buffet.

Clearly, that's not going to work! If they are going to have a buffet and a trolley then they need two staff.
 

Stathern Jc

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If it is decided to limit the catering service to one person with a trolley (and I do hope not) at least they will be able to refill the flasks with hot water and have somewhere to keep a stock to replenish the trolley.
That would be a significant improvement on what is possible on a long journey on a 170, but still a disappointment compared with what the HSTs have been equipped to be able to provide.
When the fifth coaches are added to the majority of HSTs and passenger numbers increase again I imagine that once a trolley had passed it would be some time before it managed to come by again, so for anyone who changed their mind after it had gone it would just be hard luck.
 

hexagon789

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If it is decided to limit the catering service to one person with a trolley (and I do hope not) at least they will be able to refill the flasks with hot water and have somewhere to keep a stock to replenish the trolley.
That would be a significant improvement on what is possible on a long journey on a 170, but still a disappointment compared with what the HSTs have been equipped to be able to provide.
When the fifth coaches are added to the majority of HSTs and passenger numbers increase again I imagine that once a trolley had passed it would be some time before it managed to come by again, so for anyone who changed their mind after it had gone it would just be hard luck.

I understand they have only been operating with one person - they do one pass up the train and back with the trolley, then open the buffet counter.
 

alangla

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(I always thought there was a big opportunity for improvement missed when the 170s from Hull Trains moved North.)

There was a spell where the Hull units were on fixed, mainly Inverness IIRC, diagrams with the buffet open and a limited hot food menu but it didn’t last. I suspect the usual problems of people not expecting it to be there and the inevitable substitutions with anything from an E&G to an SPT unit meant you couldn’t rely on getting your microwaved burger on a particular journey so it just seemed to be quietly discontinued before too long.
 

p.d87

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There was a spell where the Hull units were on fixed, mainly Inverness IIRC, diagrams with the buffet open and a limited hot food menu but it didn’t last. I suspect the usual problems of people not expecting it to be there and the inevitable substitutions with anything from an E&G to an SPT unit meant you couldn’t rely on getting your microwaved burger on a particular journey so it just seemed to be quietly discontinued before too long.
This was true as i worked them many a year ago. Only 4 units so not all Inverness diagrams were covered by the ex hull sets 170/3. You could start your day on a hull set from glasgow and get to inverness with the buffet modules and your return train would be a 170/4 so had to quickly find a trolley to take south or there would be no catering. Very inconsistent. This was around 2005 to 2006. Hot breakfast rolls in the morning with other hot meals later in the day which did not last long. Buffets only ever used to Inverness. If you had a 170/3 on an Aberdeen it would have still been a trolley.
 
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