Scotrail HSTs?

[SkinnyDave]

Today's rail magazine has mentioned that HSTs being replaced by IEP are being considered by other franchise bidders including Scotrail! Presumably for Aberdeen/Inverness - Edinburgh/Glasgow

Thoughts?

 

[route:oxford]

Today's rail magazine has mentioned that HSTs being replaced by IEP are being considered by other franchise bidders including Scotrail! Presumably for Aberdeen/Inverness - Edinburgh/Glasgow

Thoughts?

Hopeless for Glasgow - they waste around 40 metres of already tight platform space.

For Edinburgh - Aberdeen/Inverness limited stop expresses they would have potential, but not ideal unless Chilternised.

 

[najaB]

Today's rail magazine has mentioned that HSTs being replaced by IEP are being considered by other franchise bidders including Scotrail! Presumably for Aberdeen/Inverness - Edinburgh/Glasgow

Thoughts?

I can see it happening, though would they operate as six car rakes, as I can think of several stations along the routes where the platforms can't handle longer than that?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I can see it happening, though would they operate as six car rakes, as I can think of several stations along the routes where the platforms can't handle longer than that?

Platform length doesn't seem to matter so much nowadays, when watching a DVD about the The Cotswolds and Malverns line the HST is too long for some platforms so only the doors in standard class are unlocked.

 

[route:oxford]

Platform length doesn't seem to matter so much nowadays, when watching a DVD about the The Cotswolds and Malverns line the HST is too long for some platforms so only the doors in standard class are unlocked.

It matters when they are so long they foul access to other platforms...

 

[Domh245]

And when you have almost 2 carriages worth of space taken up by powercars

 

[DarloRich]

Platform length doesn't seem to matter so much nowadays, when watching a DVD about the The Cotswolds and Malverns line the HST is too long for some platforms so only the doors in standard class are unlocked.

Traveled on one from Hereford where the guard was making announcements at each station explaining which carriage doors would be opened. Although without powered doors you will increase dwell time.

To me an HST would be better on a route like Edinburgh - Aberdeen/Inverness than a lash up of 170's. Surely much more in keeping with a "Intercity Scotland" (TM) service

(will it happen? Who knows! Personally i hope so but doubt it)

 

[Simon11]

Today's rail magazine has mentioned that HSTs being replaced by IEP are being considered by other franchise bidders including Scotrail! Presumably for Aberdeen/Inverness - Edinburgh/Glasgow

Thoughts?

Sounds like a load of rubbish personally to me!

The bids have already gone in, the TOC's have put in their bid their rolling stock plan for the full bid. Therefore they can't be "considered".... by ScotRail bidders.

 

[DarloRich]

Sounds like a load of rubbish personally to me!

The bids have already gone in, the TOC's have put in their bid their rolling stock plan for the full bid. Therefore they can't be "considered".... by ScotRail bidders.

Whilst they wont form part of the bid the Scottish government could (in the future) instruct the franchise holder to look at using alternative trains on certain routes.

The Franchise holder themselves may apply to vary the terms of their agreement to use alternative rolling stock IF such alternative stock can be found. That doesn't often happen (!) but in this case it could

 

[SkinnyDave]

Sounds like a load of rubbish personally to me!

The bids have already gone in, the TOC's have put in their bid their rolling stock plan for the full bid. Therefore they can't be "considered".... by ScotRail bidders.

Surely if it has been rumoured then someone has leaked that it's in their rolling stock plan then?
Bidders were asked to look at the rolling stock for intercity routes in the ITT

I would have though Meridians and HST would be a possibility

 

[ianhr]

Apart from the Glasgow Queen Street route, where the platforms are to be lengthened anyway, I don't see the problem as EC run them between Edinburgh-Inverness/Aberdeen now.

The Mark3s are still the best passenger vehicle ever to run on the network and a vastly better quality journey experience than the unsuitable DMUs used for most diagrams on these lines at present.

 

[jopsuk]

The HSTs make less stops and take as long/longer than the DMU services on the Highland mainline.

 

[sprinterguy]

Apart from the Glasgow Queen Street route, where the platforms are to be lengthened anyway

Sort of defies the point of extending the platforms to take eight carriage train formations instead of six carriage ones, though.

 

[najaB]

The HSTs make less stops and take as long/longer than the DMU services on the Highland mainline.

But then you're comparing a three-car DMU to a nine-carriage HST. I'm sure a six-carriage HST would be able to keep to or beat the Class 170 timings.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Platform length doesn't seem to matter so much nowadays, when watching a DVD about the The Cotswolds and Malverns line the HST is too long for some platforms so only the doors in standard class are unlocked.

IIRC, there are three reasons a train can use a platform which is shorter than the train.

1) If the train has Selective Door Operation (SDO) fitted.

2) The train type/formation has used that platform before the rules on SDO were introduced (sometime around 2002 I think).

3) Local door operation is used.

 

[TheEdge]

Platform length doesn't seem to matter so much nowadays, when watching a DVD about the The Cotswolds and Malverns line the HST is too long for some platforms so only the doors in standard class are unlocked.

They've got an SDO system built into them. I was chatting to the guard once while sat at Ledbury and took a look at the panel. Unlike our (GA) Mk3 panels which are simply power on, release, lock the FGW have a selector dependant on the position of the CDL key. I'm sure an FGW guard will correct me if I'm wrong but I think it has the options of "All", "All behind", "All infront" and "Local". So obviously the guard needs only to place themselves in the relevant position to use one of those options.

 

[170401]

Hmmmm 30 something/almost 40 year old rolling stock being cascaded from England? If Scotland votes no in September then regardless of how good or more suitable the stock is, it will not be well received by the Scottish public. Especially if it means 10 - 15 year old class 170 stock going south!

Regardless of how we vote, I can see this being a highly controversial decision if it comes to fruition. With the exception of a vocal minority most passengers actually quite like the class 170 stock (If they actually even take any notice), their only complaint being their is not enough of it. When you compare it to the likes of Cardiff/Bristol -Plymouth/Penzance in a 150 or a 153, 170's all of a sudden don't seem that bad.

 

[dubscottie]

Heard this 20-25 odd years ago..

On completion of the ECML electrification the HST's were to work ScotRail Express services (at the time 47/7 push-pull) and take over the Waterloo - Exeter services also..

Never happened then and there is no chance it will happen now..

 

[ianhr]

What about the option of using the Mark3s with new motive power?

 

[Mikey C]

I can just imagine reaction if the HSTs all go to Scotland...

In England, it'll be "It's not fair, why do Scotland get all the trains, we in the North of England have overcrowded DMUs, why can't we have the HSTs"

In Scotland, it'll be "It's not fair, why are we getting all the cast off old trains that England doesn't want..."

 

[ExRes]

Problem solved if Scotland votes for independence, with their new found ability to run their own lives they can order dozens of nice new trains, then Scottish rail users can pay for them through their ticket prices, job done

 

[TheEdge]

Problem solved if Scotland votes for independence, with their new found ability to run their own lives they can order dozens of nice new trains, then Scottish rail users can pay for them through their ticket prices, job done

You forget the official policy of an Independent Scotland. Everything will be funded with magical imaginary money that no-one needs to worry about.

 

[irish_rail]

Surely 222/Voyager stock spare from early 2020s would be ideal to replace turbostars etc.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Problem solved if Scotland votes for independence, with their new found ability to run their own lives they can order dozens of nice new trains, then Scottish rail users can pay for them through their ticket prices, job done

What like we do now along with subsidies from Scottish Government which Scotrail is part of devolved settlement? Your point?
As Nigel Harris says he is impressed with Transport Scotland's strategy and it takes a lot to impress him.

 

[A0wen]

Surely 222/Voyager stock spare from early 2020s would be ideal to replace turbostars etc.

Depends - there are two considerations:

- Linespeed. Don't forget the Voyagers and Meridians are 125mph units - the turbostars are only 100mph. So for example anything where there is a need for fast running e.g. on ECML / WCML then the Turbostars aren't suitable as they're too slow.

- Nature of service - the turbostars have 1/3 2/3 double doors whereas the Meridian/Turbostars have a door at each end. This means they are slower to board / detrain. If they are regular stopping services then Turbostars make more sense.

 

[SkinnyDave]

You forget the official policy of an Independent Scotland. Everything will be funded with magical imaginary money that no-one needs to worry about.

That's the same class of debate and argument coming from the official No campaign! Must try harder!
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Depends - there are two considerations:

- Linespeed. Don't forget the Voyagers and Meridians are 125mph units - the turbostars are only 100mph. So for example anything where there is a need for fast running e.g. on ECML / WCML then the Turbostars aren't suitable as they're too slow.

- Nature of service - the turbostars have 1/3 2/3 double doors whereas the Meridian/Turbostars have a door at each end. This means they are slower to board / detrain. If they are regular stopping services then Turbostars make more sense.

I think it's more the comfort of the long distance journey and the internal layout that is being considered.
If that's the case then the HST would be my choice

 

[NotATrainspott]

There will only be 4 long platforms at Queen Street HL designed for 8x23m trains. The new electric fleet that is being procured for the E&G/Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa services are to eventually be 4x23m trains able to be doubled up and so there wouldn't be a vast amount of platform space left in the HL station.

The requirement for 'InterCity' rolling stock does not preclude the use of upgraded and refurbished 170s. Using some re-jigging of formations it might be possible to make some 4x23m 170s and send the remainder 2 driving cars as a set down to Northernland to help get rid of the Pacers on smaller routes.

 

[jopsuk]

Perfectly possible to configure 170s with doors between vestibules and saloons; some already do for 1st class compartments

 

[SkinnyDave]

Can anything be done to give them a bit more grunt whilst accelerating?

 

[Class 170101]

Can anything be done to give them a bit more grunt whilst accelerating?

Unlikely due to EU emissions regulations the trains would have to be fitted with 3B compliant engines. Good luck fitting them to the underside of Class 170s.
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Perfectly possible to configure 170s with doors between vestibules and saloons; some already do for 1st class compartments

Anglia 170s already have this as result of the adjustment of provision between 1st and standard class