ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[320320]

Its still more than anyone else in the industry is getting this year.

That doesn’t make any less of a poor offer.

 

[Christmas]

Its still more than anyone else in the industry is getting this year.

Is that a fact? So every other UK TOC has meekly accepted that they're getting nothing?

 

[Goldfish62]

That doesn’t make any less of a poor offer.

Why is it poor? There are clear improvements in there.

 

[Christmas]

It‘s difficult to understand why they thought it would ever be accepted as it was only really current trainees that were guaranteed anything and even that wasn’t much.

Trainees held back by 12 months or more would go to the full driver rate 9 months rather than 12 months after passing out.

Drivers with 40 years service guaranteed part time hours if they want it provided they give 12 months notice.

spare movement reduced to 3 hours from 4 hours.

Drivers off sick due to fatality to get 12 months full pay rather than 6 months full then 6 months half pay.

Then COP26 stuff regarding payments and who would be eligible/ineligible, a lot of rubbish in all honesty.

If this is all they can offer drivers, then I don't hold out any hope for the wage negotiations entered into with the RMT or Unite.

 

[Watershed]

Is that a fact? So every other UK TOC has meekly accepted that they're getting nothing?

Feel free to give details of the driver deals that you reckon have been agreed/proposed this year...

 

[320320]

Why is it poor? There are clear improvements in there.

Because 90-95% of drivers won’t see any benefit so why would they accept it.

 

[ld0595]

Let's roll on another six months of Sunday strikes!

 

[Goldfish62]

Because 90-95% of drivers won’t see any benefit so why would they accept it.

What would they accept?

 

[GALLANTON]

Aslef have told scotrail that their informal offer has “failed to meet the aspirations of our members”. If an acceptable offer is not made then the matter will be raised with the executive committee and look for a ballot for industrial action including continuous strike action and action short of a strike, including all overtime and presumably a halt to driver training.

I guess we’ll find out soon enough if there’s any money for pay rises.

Is £48k not enough for the poor drivers? Jesus wept they must be living in dire poverty if they want a pay rise.

 

[Christmas]

Feel free to give details of the driver deals that you reckon have been agreed/proposed this year...

Feel free to provide details of any of the 27 other TOCS/FOCS that currently have drivers on strike or in dispute with their employer who's pay anniversary has come and gone in April this year...

Is £48k not enough for the poor drivers? Jesus wept they must be living in dire poverty if they want a pay rise.

No, that's not enough which is why the salary is currently 51.5k per annum. This is one of the lowest driver salaries in the industry and needs to be increased dramatically to bring ScotRail drivers nearer to their peers at TPE, Avanti, LNER.

 

[320320]

What would they accept?

Probably around 2.5/3%

Is £48k not enough for the poor drivers? Jesus wept they must be living in dire poverty if they want a pay rise.

£51.5k, Why are you so upset about drivers attempting to get a pay rise?

 

[O L Leigh]

It‘s difficult to understand why they thought it would ever be accepted as it was only really current trainees that were guaranteed anything and even that wasn’t much.

Trainees held back by 12 months or more would go to the full driver rate 9 months rather than 12 months after passing out.

Drivers with 40 years service guaranteed part time hours if they want it provided they give 12 months notice.

spare movement reduced to 3 hours from 4 hours.

Drivers off sick due to fatality to get 12 months full pay rather than 6 months full then 6 months half pay.

Then COP26 stuff regarding payments and who would be eligible/ineligible, a lot of rubbish in all honesty.

Hmm. Looking at just that and not being privy to the rest of it, I would have to concur. There are aspects in there that the company has tied into a "pay deal" that really shouldn't be in there. It's going to be grossly unfair on all the delayed trainees if any improvement to their situation gets kicked into the long grass because it's been bundled-up in an unpopular offer. These are the sorts of things that really ought to have been dealt with separately by the company council, especially given that the pool of people affected is finite and, hopefully, reducing towards zero as time goes on.

I would have to question just what more you expect to achieve, though? I'm not one of those yelling in from outside about how much money you get now, but under the current situation are you anticipating an improvement in the percentage increase or in your conditions of service? Reductions in movements on spare is a step in the right direction, but I appreciate that the benefit of this rarely felt.

Most companies have yet to reveal just what will happen this year. I know I'm still waiting to find out whether or not we'll get any sort of offer, but I am realistic enough to understand that perhaps now isn't the right time to be sabre-rattling. Maybe the coming few years we'll have to take it on the chin and then go for something better when the situation improves.

Probably around 2.5/3%

I did see that the extreme rises in the cost of living were the reason for suspending the "triple lock" on state pensions. I think the RPI is running at something around 8%. Given that many increases are RPI plus a bit, that does seem like a sensible amount. However, it is out-of-step with what is happening elsewhere and maybe we're not right at the head of the queue of the deserving. I would still say that maybe we ought to be stepping a bit more lightly given how this is likely to play.

 

[GALLANTON]

Probably around 2.5/3%



£51.5k, Why are you so upset about drivers attempting to get a pay rise?

It annoys me that people on that amount of money are asking for more when there is literally thousands of people who've lost their jobs due to the pandemic. It's just pure greed.

 

[24Grange]

If you put it like that, the railways have been "leeching off the state" since at least the end of WW2.

£51.5k is way above what a university professor with a PhD takes home ( and a nurse, firefighter , school teacher etc etc...) -

 

[the sniper]

Feel free to provide details of any of the 27 other TOCS/FOCS that currently have drivers on strike or in dispute with their employer who's pay anniversary has come and gone in April this year...

April this year? Are you still holding out on a 2020 deal or is 2019 still in the works...?

 

[O L Leigh]

It annoys me that people on that amount of money are asking for more when there is literally thousands of people who've lost their jobs due to the pandemic. It's just pure greed.

It doesn't matter what's going on in the world or with the economy, there will always be people who find themselves in difficult situations through no fault of their own. Of course it's unfair, but ever is it thus. Should everyone forego a pay increase because of this inequality? Does that include you too?

I presume you saw the news item reporting that job vacancies have passed 1 million for the first time since records were kept in 2001...? Job vacancies surge past one million in new record - BBC News

 

[InOban]

Are they not offering an increase tied to a move to a 7 day contract? After all once the new drivers are trained the contractual Sunday shifts would then be covered within core hours which would release funds to increase the basic salary. I would also have thought that there might be changes to working practices which might suit both sides.

The salaries of pilots and drivers are the classic example that your salary doesn't necessarily reflect the difficulty of the job or the value you bring to those who pay you. It reflects on how difficult and expensive it is to replace you.

One can argue that, with all the modern safety protections provided to drivers, the skills required to be an OBS on an late evening train are scarcer and contribute more to the passengers.....

As others have said, and I have previously, the railway has become far to expensive to operate. Society pays for the railway, it has the right to decide how much it is prepared to pay.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I still don't get the logic. Industry on its knees financially. No sign of pre pandemic revenue returning. Insist on pay rises, we must be the only industry that are trying this bargaining strategy with a straight face.

It's bold I'll give them that.

To be clear, I don't think drivers are overpaid, or indeed underpaid, and for that reason I think now is not that time for this fight. As opposed to this not being s fight worth having. I know wages are low compared to TPE Avanti and LNER but then again so is the profitability.

 

[320320]

It annoys me that people on that amount of money are asking for more when there is literally thousands of people who've lost their jobs due to the pandemic. It's just pure greed.

You sound like you’ve got a chip on your shoulder and bitter towards railway staff for some reason, it’s weird.

Did you fail the psychometrics?

If you put it like that, the railways have been "leeching off the state" since at least the end of WW2.

£51.5k is way above what a university professor with a PhD takes home ( and a nurse, firefighter , school teacher etc etc...) -

Barring health reasons there was never anything stopping anybody from applying to be a train driver.

You should be complaining about nurses or firefighters not being paid enough without trying to drag other professions down.

 

[O L Leigh]

Are they not offering an increase tied to a move to a 7 day contract? After all once the new drivers are trained the contractual Sunday shifts would then be covered within core hours which would release funds to increase the basic salary. I would also have thought that there might be changes to working practices which might suit both sides.

Bringing Sunday within the working week does not necessarily mean savings can be made, as depot establishments would need to be increased to cover these additional contracted hours. This also has an impact on the number of days release are required for safety briefs, route refreshing and so on, as well as increasing the cost of administering for this enlarged workforce. Depending on the precise figures, it would almost be cheaper to leave it as it is.

The salaries of pilots and drivers are the classic example that your salary doesn't necessarily reflect the difficulty of the job or the value you bring to those who pay you. It reflects on how difficult and expensive it is to replace you.

One can argue that, with all the modern safety protections provided to drivers, the skills required to be an OBS on an late evening train are scarcer and contribute more to the passengers.....

I liken driving to being in a profession, and the same applies to pilots. The job may not be the most intellectually demanding but it is extremely intolerant of mistakes. Few other jobs require the same level of performance, and those that do tend also to be professions (e.g. surgeons).

That the job may not appear to be "difficult" or the value not apparent is not exactly the point, and neither is it a particularly accurate reflection of what a driver does. That a passenger values having an OBS/Guard/whatever around late at night when the train is full of drunk lairy types is not under dispute, but the fact that they arrive safely at their destination more or less on time in all weather conditions and without incident is surely also just as important to them, even if they do not consciously acknowledge this.

As others have said, and I have previously, the railway has become far to expensive to operate. Society pays for the railway, it has the right to decide how much it is prepared to pay.

Great...!! Happy for that. But to make a proper value judgement society needs to get past the "How much?! FFS!!" level of response and understand just what value the railway brings before deciding how much we should be paid.

 

[O L Leigh]

Or it could be a case that I care about other people and fail to see how people on £51k per year or whatever it is can justify scrounging a payrise when there's folk out there getting a lot less for doing a much much harder job.

No doubt. And they're entitled to be asking their employers for a pay rise too. Will you be foregoing future pay rises until this inequality is addressed?

 

[GALLANTON]

No doubt. And they're entitled to be asking their employers for a pay rise too. Will you be foregoing future pay rises until this inequality is addressed?

I'm not saying their not entitled to ask, I'm saying that it's a bit inconsiderate going on strike which will inconvenience other people just to get a pay rise when so many other people are out of work or in harder, but lower paid jobs.

 

[43066]

Reality is, rail is going to have to tighten it's belt. Wage rises that we've seen in the past two decades will be no more and voluntary redundancies are coming. Strike action won't change that.

There is clearly going to be a period of increased focus on costs. That certainly does not mean that agreements should not be kept to, or that unions should negotiate against themselves by simply accepting whatever is proposed in the first instance. It does feel like some on here relish doom and gloom. Let’s see where things go over the next couple of years!

I did see that the extreme rises in the cost of living were the reason for suspending the "triple lock" on state pensions. I think the RPI is running at something around 8%. Given that many increases are RPI plus a bit, that does seem like a sensible amount. However, it is out-of-step with what is happening elsewhere and maybe we're not right at the head of the queue of the deserving. I would still say that maybe we ought to be stepping a bit more lightly given how this is likely to play.

There’s probably a lot to be said at the moment for negotiating to maximise non financial benefits, i.e. improvements in movements off spare and those other bits and bobs, which are the kinds of things that have got worse over time at most places.

Equally I can see how that would play badly at Scotrail when they are already at the bottom of the barrel paywise.

It annoys me that people on that amount of money are asking for more when there is literally thousands of people who've lost their jobs due to the pandemic. It's just pure greed.

By that argument nobody in any industry should ever ask for a pay increase whilever there are unemployed people.

One can argue that, with all the modern safety protections provided to drivers, the skills required to be an OBS on an late evening train are scarcer and contribute more to the passengers.....

This shows a complete lack of understanding of the driver role. The safety systems don’t make the job easier at all, they’re there to stop people being killed if you screw up. If they intervene you won’t be in the job for very long…

Unless you’ve been both a pilot and a train driver perhaps you should reserve judgement on how easy or otherwise those occupations may be.

As others have said, and I have previously, the railway has become far to expensive to operate. Society pays for the railway, it has the right to decide how much it is prepared to pay.

Rightly or wrongly policy of successive governments has been to shift more of the cost of running the railway onto ticket prices, while reducing the burden on general taxation. That certainly isn’t the same thing as the railway being “far too expensive to operate”.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm not saying their not entitled to ask, I'm saying that it's a bit inconsiderate going on strike which will inconvenience other people just to get a pay rise when so many other people are out of work or in harder, but lower paid jobs.

No strikes have been called by drivers as yet.

I'll admit that I've not been following this whole thread, but it was only earlier today that any mention has been made of the matter being referred to the ASLEF executive council, which is quite a long way from there being drivers standing around braziers outside of traincrew depots.

 

[Swanley 59]

£51.5k is way above what a university professor with a PhD takes home ( and a nurse, firefighter , school teacher etc etc...) -

Not so, I'm afraid. £51.5K is top of the Senior Lecturer scale. A professor would expect to earn over £60k.

 

[43066]

Not so, I'm afraid. £51.5K is top of the Senior Lecturer scale. A professor would expect to earn over £60k.

To be fair these comparisons between completely unrelated jobs and industries come up far too often in these discussions and are always utterly meaningless. There are plumbers and other tradespeople also earning way more than university professors. Academic qualifications are only one factor in determining what somebody earns.

 

[the sniper]

A professor would expect to earn over £60k.

What a repulsive expectation, don't they know school teachers earn less and have to deal with yobbo kids?! Them striking would be a disgrace. Do they deserve it, is the question we have to ask...

 

[Swanley 59]

What a repulsive expectation, don't they know school teachers earn less and have to deal with yobbo kids?! Them striking would be a disgrace. Do they deserve it, is the question we have to ask...

Oh, it gets worse... A professor might also anticipate further enhancement of an already generous salary with, you know, performance-related bonuses. There are downsides, though. Sunday is very much part of the working week.

 

[InOban]

Bringing Sunday within the working week does not necessarily mean savings can be made, as depot establishments would need to be increased to cover these additional contracted hours. This also has an impact on the number of days release are required for safety briefs, route refreshing and so on, as well as increasing the cost of administering for this enlarged workforce. Depending on the precise figures, it would almost be cheaper to leave it as it is.



I liken driving to being in a profession, and the same applies to pilots. The job may not be the most intellectually demanding but it is extremely intolerant of mistakes. Few other jobs require the same level of performance, and those that do tend also to be professions (e.g. surgeons).

That the job may not appear to be "difficult" or the value not apparent is not exactly the point, and neither is it a particularly accurate reflection of what a driver does. That a passenger values having an OBS/Guard/whatever around late at night when the train is full of drunk lairy types is not under dispute, but the fact that they arrive safely at their destination more or less on time in all weather conditions and without incident is surely also just as important to them, even if they do not consciously acknowledge this.



Great...!! Happy for that. But to make a proper value judgement society needs to get past the "How much?! FFS!!" level of response and understand just what value the railway brings before deciding how much we should be paid.

I understood that pre-covid Scotrail had recruited enough trainees to eventually eliminate routine overtime, and since they intend to reduce services to match the reduction in travel, they should not require additional drivers to move to 7 day working.

More expert people than I have argued that planes would now be safer without pilots because most accidents are caused by the pilots flying the plane manually instead of letting the auto systems do it.

And if an emergency arises in front of a train, there is nothing the driver can do, and yet they may get PTSD afterwards.

 

[O L Leigh]

I understood that pre-covid Scotrail had recruited enough trainees to eventually eliminate routine overtime, and since they intend to reduce services to match the reduction in travel, they should not require additional drivers to move to 7 day working.

Well, I guess we’ll have to wait and see how that works out. I’ve no idea if bringing Sunday into the working week is even on the table, but it generally takes about a year to train a driver assuming all goes to plan. Sadly it hasn’t over the last 18 months, so I’d imagine that a lot of those trainees have been stuck in limbo for a fair while and are some way off qualifying.

That said, it still requires a larger workforce to bring Sunday into the working week than leaving it outside. It may be that ScotRail is cutting the service to match the staff numbers, but it still means that they have more staff than would otherwise be required.

And if an emergency arises in front of a train, there is nothing the driver can do, and yet they may get PTSD afterwards.

I don’t think I’ve ever met a driver who had PTSD following an incident. But there’s an awful lot more to the job than just dealing with emergencies.