ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[Bikeman78]

Because 90-95% of drivers won’t see any benefit so why would they accept it.

If they enjoy their job and can pay the bills, why do they want anything more? I didn't get a pay rise last year. Doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Taylor]

If they enjoy their job and can pay the bills, why do they want anything more? I didn't get a pay rise last year. Doesn't bother me at all.

Maybe they dislike their job and are struggling to pay their bills.

 

[Carlisle]

Thousands of whom are represented by the RMT...

Has the RMT had much success in preventing recently proposed compulsory redundancies such as the SWR catering contractors. ?

 

[43066]

If they enjoy their job and can pay the bills, why do they want anything more? I didn't get a pay rise last year. Doesn't bother me at all.

Again, isn’t that basically an argument for nobody ever receiving a pay rise?!

Lots of them probably don’t enjoy what can be an extremely demanding, anti social and demoralising role at times. Getting up at 0300 doesn’t get any easier just because there are fewer passengers in the back.

Even if they do enjoy it, if you were being paid £20K+ per year less than your peers doing exactly the same job at other companies, how would you feel?!

 

[320320]

If they enjoy their job and can pay the bills, why do they want anything more? I didn't get a pay rise last year. Doesn't bother me at all.

Most people go to work to earn money to live not because it’s a hobby.

Good for you being happy with no pay rise but I suspect you’re in a very small minority.

 

[Goldfish62]

Has the RMT had much success in preventing recently proposed compulsory redundancies such as the SWR catering contractors. ?

Presumably not given that there's no sign of catering reappearing on SWR.

 

[Carlisle]

Presumably not given that there's no sign of catering reappearing on SWR.

Ok thanks.

 

[Bikeman78]

Again, isn’t that basically an argument for nobody ever receiving a pay rise?!

Lots of them probably don’t enjoy what can be an extremely demanding, anti social and demoralising role at times. Getting up at 0300 doesn’t get any easier just because there are fewer passengers in the back.

Even if they do enjoy it, if you were being paid £20K+ per year less than your peers doing exactly the same job at other companies, how would you feel?!

To clarify, I meant this year, not forever. To me, it doesn't seem like a good time to be complaining about pay or conditions. If you disagree with me, fair enough. I'm happy that I still have a job. If nothing else, it gives me a purpose in life.

 

[Carlisle]

Even if they do enjoy it, if you were being paid £20K+ per year less than your peers doing exactly the same job at other companies, how would you feel?!

Nothing stopping them applying to an Inter City TOC & I’m sure well over half the working population probably know someone doing a similar job who earns more but isn’t currently planning to go on strike over it

 

[wobman]

It annoys me that people on that amount of money are asking for more when there is literally thousands of people who've lost their jobs due to the pandemic. It's just pure greed.

Why do people have such a dislike of train drivers earning a good wage ? There's plenty of occupations that earn far more and many in the rail industry earn more than drivers.

I understood that pre-covid Scotrail had recruited enough trainees to eventually eliminate routine overtime, and since they intend to reduce services to match the reduction in travel, they should not require additional drivers to move to 7 day working.

More expert people than I have argued that planes would now be safer without pilots because most accidents are caused by the pilots flying the plane manually instead of letting the auto systems do it.

And if an emergency arises in front of a train, there is nothing the driver can do, and yet they may get PTSD afterwards.

Overtime will never end, the nature of the industry and the working patterns / shifts. There's times it reduces but then staff retire / get promoted / leave etc but it takes 12 months to train a driver up. Plus most tocs run under complement of staff to save money.
I don't think people realise it takes a lot more traincrew to fulfill a 24/7 railway than a few extra recruited just to cover natural wastage.

Again, isn’t that basically an argument for nobody ever receiving a pay rise?!

Lots of them probably don’t enjoy what can be an extremely demanding, anti social and demoralising role at times. Getting up at 0300 doesn’t get any easier just because there are fewer passengers in the back.

Even if they do enjoy it, if you were being paid £20K+ per year less than your peers doing exactly the same job at other companies, how would you feel?!

Some posters Sound like there members of the management pay negotiating team

 

[alangla]

Even if they do enjoy it, if you were being paid £20K+ per year less than your peers doing exactly the same job at other companies, how would you feel?!

There’s a simple answer to that and it applies in every other industry where there is more than one employer.
In saying that, once GB Railways are in charge there may well be a chance of pay and conditions being harmonised across the industry.



Followed by decades of pay freezes.

I suppose the message is that the unions should be careful what they wish for

 

[24Grange]

BR had harmonised pay and conditions before privitisation (no?)or was it varied across SR/ WR regions etc and countries?

 

[dk1]

There’s a simple answer to that and it applies in every other industry where there is more than one employer.
In saying that, once GB Railways are in charge there may well be a chance of pay and conditions being harmonised across the industry.

That would be nothing short of miraculous. My particular TOC merged with two others 17 years ago & we are still on three separate contracts as none could agree on any form of harmonisation.

 

[alangla]

That would be nothing short of miraculous. My particular TOC merged with two others 17 years ago & we are still on three separate contracts as none could agree on any form of harmonisation.

One that operates north of about Crewe perchance?
Yep, the current situation is a mess all right, it’ll be interesting to see if nettles are grasped or if things get kicked into the long grass in the next few years

 

[dk1]

One that operates north of about Crewe perchance?
Yep, the current situation is a mess all right, it’ll be interesting to see if nettles are grasped or if things get kicked into the long grass in the next few years

Bit further East. I can’t see much harmonisation happening in my working career.

 

[Speed43125]

One that operates north of about Crewe perchance?

Think more Stadlerland...

 

[dk1]

Think more Stadlerland...

It’s a wonderful place with an abundance of rolling stock & traincrew.

 

[3rd rail land]

If they enjoy their job and can pay the bills, why do they want anything more? I didn't get a pay rise last year. Doesn't bother me at all.

I enjoy my non railway job and earn enough to pay my bills. That said I also want to earn enough for fund my hobbies and have a decent holiday each year. I also want to earn the going rate for my skillset and expertise.
As has being said ScotRail drivers don't get the going rate which if were in that situation would bother me a great deal and at the very least I'd want answers as to why my pay is lower than that of my fellow drivers at other TOCs.
It would leave me feeling undervalued and thinking that my employer is just trying to get away with paying as little as they can.

Many people will say that in this economy one should be grateful to have a job, any job, regardless of the pay but I have to disagree. If I provide my time and expertise to an employer I want to feel valued and one way to do that is to get paid the going rate for the role.
That said you do have to pick the right time to have a dispute/go on strike. These are hard times for the transport industry and there simply isn't the money available to be handing out pay increases. At least not increasing fares and we already have some of the highest fares in Europe and potentially the world. Why should hard working people like me have to pay even higher fares just so a driver/guard.wh9ever can earn more money?

There are hard times ahead for everyone, after all we are in a recession. I do sympathsie with the drivers an& guards but I am not sure ScotRail/Transport Scotland have the funds available to give rail workers what they are asking for. I can't see an end to the guards action/dispute anytime this year.

 

[43066]

These are hard times for the transport industry and there simply isn't the money available to be handing out pay increases.

That argument starts to look rather hollow when the government has apparently been able to afford to pay people £30k per year for doing absolutely nothing. The money is there alright, it’s just a question of priorities.

 

[Watershed]

That argument starts to look rather hollow when the government has apparently been able to afford to pay people £30k per year for doing absolutely nothing. The money is there alright, it’s just a question of priorities.

Whilst there are many criticisms to make of the furlough scheme, I think there is a drastic difference here.

Furlough is a time-limited scheme to pay people up to 80% of their wages, because the government has forced their employer to close and/or made it uneconomic for them to trade.

Pay increases for the railway mean increasing the subsidy of an already heavily subsidised public service - on a permanent basis. You're never going to get union agreement to pay cuts, after all.

And, rightly or wrongly, people will say "well for what"? The UK has never relied less on its railways. The majority of passenger traffic recovery has been in leisure travel, which is by definition mostly non-essential, and could in many cases be undertaken by other means of transport. And freight (mostly) stands on its own two feet, but again could largely be transported by road if push came to shove.

So although in one given year the bill for furlough might vastly exceed the bill for railway pay increases - because it's a permanent increase, over the long term the cost would really add up. In the circumstances it's not difficult to see why increasing pay, even if it's morally justified in some ways, is going to be an uphill battle for the unions.

 

[Goldfish62]

That argument starts to look rather hollow when the government has apparently been able to afford to pay people £30k per year for doing absolutely nothing. The money is there alright, it’s just a question of priorities.

That's a one-off payment, same as a lump sum payment to railway staff instead of a pay rise would be.

 

[43066]

Pay increases for the railway mean increasing the subsidy of an already heavily subsidised public service - on a permanent basis. You're never going to get union agreement to pay cuts, after all.

And, rightly or wrongly, people will say "well for what"? The UK has never relied less on its railways. The majority of passenger traffic recovery has been in leisure travel, which is by definition mostly non-essential, and could in many cases be undertaken by other means of transport. And freight (mostly) stands on its own two feet, but again could largely be transported by road if push came to shove.

So although in one given year the bill for furlough might vastly exceed the bill for railway pay increases - because it's a permanent increase, over the long term the cost would really add up. In the circumstances it's not difficult to see why increasing pay, even if it's morally justified in some ways, is going to be an uphill battle for the unions.

It’s certainly an uphill battle(!) but I’d argue there’s a strong moral case for all essential workers being deserving of recognition for the fact that we have kept working throughout the pandemic. That especially applies to Scotrail who are paid well below the going rate as it is. Let’s call it like it is, with inflation as it is, anything less than a 3% increase (which nobody is going to get) is a pay cut anyway in real terms.

Of course the railway’s real benefit is in stimulating economic activity, which looking at fare revenue v. subsidy overlooks. Those “non essential” journeys are allowing people to patronise business, spend money etc. so are worth a lot more than their weight in fares, so to speak.

That's a one-off payment, same as a lump sum payment to railway staff instead of a pay rise would be.

The cost of furlough has run to tens of billions, rather more than it would cost to give Scotrail staff a modest rise, and clearly the money is there when the government wants it to be. The government is spending money like it’s going out of fashion so we can hardly blame unions (across many industries) for fighting to get their members a piece of the pie.

 

[wobman]

Whilst there are many criticisms to make of the furlough scheme, I think there is a drastic difference here.

Furlough is a time-limited scheme to pay people up to 80% of their wages, because the government has forced their employer to close and/or made it uneconomic for them to trade.

Pay increases for the railway mean increasing the subsidy of an already heavily subsidised public service - on a permanent basis. You're never going to get union agreement to pay cuts, after all.

And, rightly or wrongly, people will say "well for what"? The UK has never relied less on its railways. The majority of passenger traffic recovery has been in leisure travel, which is by definition mostly non-essential, and could in many cases be undertaken by other means of transport. And freight (mostly) stands on its own two feet, but again could largely be transported by road if push came to shove.

So although in one given year the bill for furlough might vastly exceed the bill for railway pay increases - because it's a permanent increase, over the long term the cost would really add up. In the circumstances it's not difficult to see why increasing pay, even if it's morally justified in some ways, is going to be an uphill battle for the unions.

So leisure travel is not essential ! It's essential for the UK economy, the commutters are coming back gradually but leisure travel has never been so busy.

It sounds like you want the railways tarmaced over and build more roads, how good is that for the environment and economy.

I am baffled by the dislike so many posters have towards traincrew on these posts, why not direct towards the DFT and politicians that cause most of the problems.

 

[Bodiddly]

I will never understand the mentality of people who are happy not to get a payrise. The reason for a pay increase is to keep up with your personal spending commitments which is why it's linked to inflation. I have seen my basic bills go up by over £100 a month before I even think of stepping foot inside of a Supermarket.
Also, as a key worker, I have worked throughout the Pandemic and to not be offered even a small pay award is an absolute kick in the teeth.
For the last 2 years, I've had in essence, a pay cut.

 

[kw12]

I will never understand the mentality of people who are happy not to get a payrise. The reason for a pay increase is to keep up with your personal spending commitments which is why it's linked to inflation. I have seen my basic bills go up by over £100 a month before I even think of stepping foot inside of a Supermarket.
Also, as a key worker, I have worked throughout the Pandemic and to not be offered even a small pay award is an absolute kick in the teeth.
For the last 2 years, I've had in essence, a pay cut.

Being realistic about something is not the same as being happy about it.

 

[wobman]

Just to play devil's advocate, are we all fine with MP's managing an almost annual pay rise then?

Plus they are always well above inflation rises, it's the old do as I say not do as I do with politicians. Imagine get all your travel plus expenses and a free 2nd home all paid for ontop of your salary.

 

[Carlisle]

Y

My particular TOC merged with two others 17 years ago & we are still on three separate contracts as none could agree on any form of harmonisation.

That’s the problem, whilst there’s highly valid arguments for drivers pay rates to be near identical UK wide, would there be sufficient consensus on anything other than everyone adopting the highest paying TOCs wages.? Same in most industries harmonisation scenarios I presume

 

[320320]

That argument starts to look rather hollow when the government has apparently been able to afford to pay people £30k per year for doing absolutely nothing. The money is there alright, it’s just a question of priorities.

Scotrail and transport scotland are saying there’s no money at the same time as not bothering to collect revenue.

There‘s barely any on board revenue collection and hardly a station has barriers. They are, in effect, running a free shuttle service for anyone who doesn’t want to pay.

When they start enforcing revenue collection people might be a bit more willing to listen to the claims of no money.

 

[Horizon22]

Being realistic about something is not the same as being happy about it.

Indeed. I accept not having a pay rise and expect pay restraint in coming years, but doesn't mean I'm necessarily happy about it and won't - where appropriate - expect there to be some pay negotiations.

Realism has to be expected when an industry has haemorrhaged money for 18 months. Lots of people aren't responsible for difficult issues in their own industries, but things can happen that are out of people's control. The issue for some is that railway salaries have been on inflation-busting rises for many years, so people have become accustomed to it.

 

[Carntyne]

Scotrail and transport scotland are saying there’s no money at the same time as not bothering to collect revenue.

There‘s barely any on board revenue collection and hardly a station has barriers. They are, in effect, running a free shuttle service for anyone who doesn’t want to pay.

When they start enforcing revenue collection people might be a bit more willing to listen to the claims of no money.

Surely it's the staff wanting the payrise who enforce revenue protection.