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ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

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320320

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We must assume ScotRail and RMT had some discussion or there would be no dispute?

Why is it that you‘re ready to make assumptions that give Scotrail the benefit of the doubt without hearing from them yet looking for the RMT to start explaining their position?
 
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Why is it that you‘re ready to make assumptions that give Scotrail the benefit of the doubt without hearing from them yet looking for the RMT to start explaining their position?

As an inconvenienced passenger, it would be appreciated if either side would have the decency to explain exactly why this dispute is happening.

The key thing is not the politicians viewing the railway as no longer "essential", but the passengers.

Already there's been no service on a Sunday for sufficiently long that people have devised their own alternatives. Most of them will not be back, so my hunch is that Scotland will revert to a 6-day week railway. I get the feeling that quite a proportion of those on here feel this would be "welcome" for them, and the track engineers probably say Wonderful. Of course, you lose the out-Friday, home-Sunday traffic as well, the shift workers who do Wednesday to Sunday, etc. If strikes move to weekdays as well the same will apply. It was always a minority transport system anyway.

Thinking that after a substantial strike everything will come back as normal is just unrealistic. There are a range of rail operators around the world who just gave up completely after a major strike, because the onetime customers had moved on in life. The S-Bahn network across West Berlin in the 1980s is just one example. Whole railways in the USA shut down and were ripped up for scrap after a strike, such as the Rock Island. People find alternatives, and all the synergy of past marketing campaigns and established usage is lost.

By the way, don't think the Climate Conference will notice. All the key attendees who the press focus on will come by air. The delegates will be taken to/from their hotels in chauffered electric cars. The railway will be an irrelevance, operating or not.

Well said.
 

320320

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As an inconvenienced passenger, it would be appreciated if either side would have the decency to explain exactly why this dispute is happening.

RMT members had their RDW enhancement removed and no pay rise for two years and after attempting to negotiate with Abellio they were told there was no money and they were getting nothing. Their argument is that Abellio have given drivers pay rises and an enhanced RDW agreement during this time and they want to be treated fairly, in line with the way drivers have and have engaged in industrial action as a last resort.

As an inconvenienced passenger you could have found this out easily if you’d taken The time to look.
 

Carntyne

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Why is it that you‘re ready to make assumptions that give Scotrail the benefit of the doubt without hearing from them yet looking for the RMT to start explaining their position?
My experience of being an RMT member. This expired agreement is at the centre of their argument yet they've barely spoken about the detail and seem at best uneasy in talking about the time-limited aspect of it when challenged. Something not quite right there.
 

kylemore

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By the way, don't think the Climate Conference will notice. All the key attendees who the press focus on will come by air. The delegates will be taken to/from their hotels in chauffered electric cars. The railway will be an irrelevance, operating or not.
Exactly.

However what is more worrying is that the railway is in serious danger of becoming "an irrelevance" to the travelling public in general.

I am very pro-rail but I can count the number of times I've been on a train this year with the fingers on my hands - pre "event" I averaged about six single journeys per week!

I think north of the central belt the vast majority of people would hardly notice if the railways disappeared tomorrow.

No matter the rights and wrongs of the dispute, if I was a Scotrail employee I would at least "pause and consider" before supporting what may turn out to be a suicidal strike.
 

320320

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My experience of being an RMT member. This expired agreement is at the centre of their argument yet they've barely spoken about the detail and seem at best uneasy in talking about the time-limited aspect of it when challenged. Something not quite right there.

I’ve posted this already but you swerved it the first time. When did Scotrail come out and say that they’ve filled all of the vacancies and that they no longer require a RDW agreement to run the timetabled service?

You‘re demanding explanations from the RMT but refusing to ask any questions of Scotrail’s part in this shambles.
 

Starmill

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I think that the only thing we can say for certain hefe is that there's widespread disagreement on the most basic facts of the matter.
 

3rd rail land

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RMT members had their RDW enhancement removed and no pay rise for two years and after attempting to negotiate with Abellio they were told there was no money and they were getting nothing. Their argument is that Abellio have given drivers pay rises and an enhanced RDW agreement during this time and they want to be treated fairly, in line with the way drivers have and have engaged in industrial action as a last resort.
If I were guard I'd be rather ticked off that drivers get a pay rise but not guards especially as Abellio has said there is no money for pay rises. As for the RDW enhancement I think it's fair that goes when there are enough guards employed to cover the timetabled services without needing people to work rest days. It doesn't sound like Abellio have enough guards yet to do away with RDW enhancements. I am sure some people are of the view guards should be grateful to have a job in the current economy but I don't share that view.

Of course action taken by RMT negatively impacts passengers but short of giving in to what Abellio have offered, which sounds like a bad deal from what I am reading, I can't see any option available that doesn't negatively affect passengers.
 

scotraildriver

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I’ve posted this already but you swerved it the first time. When did Scotrail come out and say that they’ve filled all of the vacancies and that they no longer require a RDW agreement to run the timetabled service?

You‘re demanding explanations from the RMT but refusing to ask any questions of Scotrail’s part in this shambles.
Phil Campbell sent an Email to everyone on the 28th April staying this and also showing the time limited agreement signed by ASLEF and RMT.
 

Goldfish62

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No matter the rights and wrongs of the dispute, if I was a Scotrail employee I would at least "pause and consider" before supporting what may turn out to be a suicidal strike.
I think it would be naive to think that most staff give a monkey's about the future of the railways beyond their own future security, pay and conditions. That's the same with any organisation except perhaps the likes of the NHS.

As it is currently I think they probably still consider that on balance the damage being done to ScotRail is unlikely to have an adverse long term impact on themselves as individuals, because of the perceived industrial strength of the RMT, the always-present prospect of taxpayer-funded payouts and the political hot potato for the SNP of service withdrawals or line closures. The latter would probably be impossible for the party to live with.
 

Class83

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Phil Campbell sent an Email to everyone on the 28th April staying this and also showing the time limited agreement signed by ASLEF and RMT.
Is it possible that they have hired the number required to eliminate RDW with normal sickness absence, but due to self isolation rules, absence is running at a higher than normal rate so RDW is still needed?
 

Carntyne

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I’ve posted this already but you swerved it the first time. When did Scotrail come out and say that they’ve filled all of the vacancies and that they no longer require a RDW agreement to run the timetabled service?

You‘re demanding explanations from the RMT but refusing to ask any questions of Scotrail’s part in this shambles.
See scotraildriver's reply.

The company appears to have been upfront about the financial situation and the RDW agreements signed. RMT less so.
 

Taunton

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the political hot potato for the SNP of service withdrawals or line closures. The latter would probably be impossible for the party to live with.
But it's the employees themselves who have now made the service an increasing irrelevance to people's lives. You can't say some service that gets withdrawn long term is politically essential.
 

Goldfish62

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But it's the employees themselves who have now made the service an increasing irrelevance to people's lives. You can't say some service that gets withdrawn long term is politically essential.
Can you really see, eg, the Far North or West Highland line being closed?

Think about it :

SNP: closing lines
Westminster Tories: reopening lines.

Not a good look.
 

PaulMc7

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Can you really see, eg, the Far North or West Highland line being closed?

Think about it :

SNP: closing lines
Westminster Tories: reopening lines.

Not a good look.
With how bad the alternative to the SNP is in Scotland and I don't rate them highly either they could theoretically get away with it without too much backlash from their voters or vote losses. I doubt they would close lines but I could see some lines getting some really infrequent services if there's not a major bounce back in passenger numbers soon.
 

Devon Sunset

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See scotraildriver's reply.

The company appears to have been upfront about the financial situation and the RDW agreements signed. RMT less so.
I just looked at said email and although it mentions a time limited deal it does not show it. Maybe not as clear cut as you think. The deal also applied to all 4 unions so are all departments fully staffed?
 

320320

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Phil Campbell sent an Email to everyone on the 28th April staying this and also showing the time limited agreement signed by ASLEF and RMT.

That email makes no reference to Aslef nor does it show any signed agreements by Aslef or the RMT.

It states, “The original agreement with non driver grades was introduced for a time limited period to cover a vacancy gap, which was subsequently filled.”

This agreement has never been anything to do with drivers.
See scotraildriver's reply.

The company appears to have been upfront about the financial situation and the RDW agreements signed. RMT less so.

See above.
 

LoogaBarooga

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The key thing is not the politicians viewing the railway as no longer "essential", but the passengers.

Already there's been no service on a Sunday for sufficiently long that people have devised their own alternatives. Most of them will not be back, so my hunch is that Scotland will revert to a 6-day week railway. I get the feeling that quite a proportion of those on here feel this would be "welcome" for them, and the track engineers probably say Wonderful. Of course, you lose the out-Friday, home-Sunday traffic as well, the shift workers who do Wednesday to Sunday, etc. If strikes move to weekdays as well the same will apply. It was always a minority transport system anyway.

Thinking that after a substantial strike everything will come back as normal is just unrealistic. There are a range of rail operators around the world who just gave up completely after a major strike, because the onetime customers had moved on in life. The S-Bahn network across West Berlin in the 1980s is just one example. Whole railways in the USA shut down and were ripped up for scrap after a strike, such as the Rock Island. People find alternatives, and all the synergy of past marketing campaigns and established usage is lost.

By the way, don't think the Climate Conference will notice. All the key attendees who the press focus on will come by air. The delegates will be taken to/from their hotels in chauffered electric cars. The railway will be an irrelevance, operating or not.
Aye obviously the delegates aren't getting the train. What about the thousands of other people in Scotland for the conference though? The aides, the journalists, the protesters, the list goes on and on. How are these people getting around with a ton of road closures and no trains running?

If politicians didn't see the railway as essential why did they pump hundreds of millions of pounds into it to keep it going during the lockdown? Surely they could have run a skeleton service and furloughed most of the staff with a view to punting them as soon as possible.
 

Taunton

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... The aides, the journalists, the protesters, the list goes on and on. How are these people getting around with a ton of road closures and no trains running?
If they are like the environmentalist protestors I saw at Weymouth last summer, loading their banners at the end of the protest into their diesel (yes) Mercedes estate car ...
 
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By the way, don't think the Climate Conference will notice. All the key attendees who the press focus on will come by air. The delegates will be taken to/from their hotels in chauffered electric cars. The railway will be an irrelevance, operating or not.

Key delegates will be driven in (mainly for security reasons) but all other attendees and staff will have to use public transport as there is no parking available onsite at any of the venues.

There's thousands of attendees, technicians, security, catering, cleaners, journalists, exhibitors that will need to travel in each day - a fully operational railway (not just in Glasgow) is absolutely critical to the functioning of COP26
There's a severe shortage of accomodation in Glasgow during COP26 so many folk are having to stay remotely and commute in (some AV techs have been put in in hotels in Stirling, Livingston, Greenock even Carlisle!)
 

Falcon1200

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If politicians didn't see the railway as essential why did they pump hundreds of millions of pounds into it to keep it going during the lockdown?

A consequence of this strike will be to demonstrate just how non-essential (even with a 12-day shutdown) to the vast majority of people the railway actually is. Which does not bode well for Scotrail's future.
 

CalF

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What the unions (and Scotrail) need to realise is that train travel has gone from an essential to an optional purchase for lots of people (particularly commuters).

A good number of people at my office have started going back in 2 or 3 days a week over the last month or so. To the point that two thirds are now spending at least some time in the office (totally voluntarily).

If there are no trains for 2 weeks, I suspect a good number of these will simply revert back to working from home once they’re out of the routine of going in, at least over the winter period.

Equally, the easiest access point to my local station is closed for revenue protection reasons during peak times. Clearly if this happened at a coffee shop or similar, I’d just give it a miss- many people can now do the same with train travel.

The unions and Scotrail need to wake up and realise that they no longer have such a large captive market. It’s now up to them to attract and retain customers just like most other businesses.
 

Goldfish62

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Key delegates will be driven in (mainly for security reasons) but all other attendees and staff will have to use public transport as there is no parking available onsite at any of the venues.

There's thousands of attendees, technicians, security, catering, cleaners, journalists, exhibitors that will need to travel in each day - a fully operational railway (not just in Glasgow) is absolutely critical to the functioning of COP26
There's a severe shortage of accomodation in Glasgow during COP26 so many folk are having to stay remotely and commute in (some AV techs have been put in in hotels in Stirling, Livingston, Greenock even Carlisle!)
There will be a substantial shuttle bus operation to and from the city centre operated by Firstbus using electric buses. Of course staff etc still have to get into Glasgow in the first place.
 

92002

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There will be a substantial shuttle bus operation to and from the city centre operated by Firstbus using electric buses. Of course staff etc still have to get into Glasgow in the first place.
Guess Livingston, Greenock and Carlisle should be fine. Trains are DOO and have no guards. Carlisle is not Scot-Rail.
Stirling on the other hand could be a bit of a challenge.
 

Taunton

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If politicians didn't see the railway as essential why did they pump hundreds of millions of pounds into it to keep it going during the lockdown?
Mystery to many, nationwide. It was all a question of who was well-enough connected with the government to get first dibs at the funds. I understand the union attitude was that no way were they going to be furloughed, despite there being no passengers. There was the pretence that it was all provided for key workers, when anyone could see that all the key workers were using their cars even more than normal.
 

Watershed

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Mystery to many, nationwide. It was all a question of who was well-enough connected with the government to get first dibs at the funds. I understand the union attitude was that no way were they going to be furloughed, despite there being no passengers. There was the pretence that it was all provided for key workers, when anyone could see that all the key workers were using their cars even more than normal.
I think one factor was that the TOCs got across that rebuilding route/traction knowledge totally from scratch would be an almost impossible task. Meaning that if support wasn't forthcoming, there would effectively be no railway to return to after lockdown.

Then there's the fact that literally all the TOCs (except GTR who were already on a management contract) would have folded, leaving the DfT to take over 20 odd TOCs at once - noting their obligation under the Railways Act to secure the continued operation of franchised services if a franchisee fails.

Initially the expectation was that lockdown would only last a few weeks, and whilst financial support to the TOCs would need to last longer than that (until revenue returned to pre-Covid levels), it was a short-term measure. Of course, we now know differently!

I don't think we can fairly say - with the benefit of hindsight - that the approach was inherently wrong. But I do think there are some incredibly unrealistic expectations all across the industry. Until people accept that the post-Covid railway is a very different beast, industrial disputes like these will continue to mar the railway's recovery.
 

Number5

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Guess Livingston, Greenock and Carlisle should be fine. Trains are DOO and have no guards. Carlisle is not Scot-Rail.
Stirling on the other hand could be a bit of a challenge.
Livingston and Greenock are being affected on Sundays at the moment due to the Ticket Examiners being involved in the dispute.
I expect that will be the case as well if this strike goes ahead.
 

92002

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Livingston and Greenock are being affected on Sundays at the moment due to the Ticket Examiners being involved in the dispute.
I expect that will be the case as well if this strike goes ahead.
No doubt there is a master plan to solve the problem. What has been happening on a Sunday does not really fit with a weekday. So plans will change I think.
 
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