ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[PaulMc7]

Same here. I wonder if the RMT missed an opportunity to gain public (and political) support by suspending industrial action during COP26. Instead they took the traditional approach, how it’s done on the railways I guess.

RMT have enough public support because loads of people hated Abellio as it is and don't actually realise how high the wages they're currently on are. A lot of the people supporting them wouldn't be so keen to support it if they knew they're on potentially double minimum wage going by the average salary figures. It's a job that in reality if you can't survive on the wage you've handled the salary very wrongly

 

[snookertam]

The strike may well have two unintended consequences, both potentially disastrous for the railway in Scotland and therefore its employees;

People will find other means of travel and some will not return to rail after the strike.
People will not view the railway as in any way a reliable form of transport.

From outside the RMT's repeated rejection of Scotrail's offers suggests that the only thing they will accept is the employer's complete capitulation to their demands; No employer can agree to that, because the same thing will happen every year thereafter.

It’s what ScotRail do with the drivers every year.

I have seen pilots cleaning the aircraft between turn arounds.

Why would this be a good thing, or an acceptable example to follow? I’d rather pilots were left to fly planes.

 

[YellowBrick]

It’s certainly not “petty and insignificant“ to the people that have been on strike over pay and conditions since March.

Compared to the stated goals of COP26 (which is exactly the comparison I made and that you've bolded), yes, it definitely is.

One of these things can long-term affect billions of people across the globe (not hyperbole [1]), potentially having an effect on millions of deaths (also not hyperbole [2]).

The other is a ~thousand people who, having now spent the last 2 hours reading the last 10 pages of this thread, seem to want a little more time off, and/or "fairer" pay compared to some of their compatriots. (I'm still not clear what the RMT's demands are, but that seems to be what everyone has spent the last ~300 posts arguing about.)

I'm sure you'll agree that one of these things is not like the other.

Hence my stance that a strike during COP26 is morally indefensible.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959378002000900
[2] https://www.proquest.com/openview/b...79bf9f1f9b/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=2043523

Why would this be a good thing, or an acceptable example to follow? I’d rather pilots were left to fly planes.

Pilots are only allowed to fly a certain number of hours (around 100 per month): https://aviation.stackexchange.com/...-to-how-many-hours-a-person-can-fly-per-month

 

[Robertj21a]

Why are RMT members not being balloted ?

 

[Devon Sunset]

There is never a good time for a strike but no union is going to look a gift horse like this in the mouth. To suspend action during the biggest bargaining chip we’ve had in a very long time would be foolish in the extreme. As for being morally reprehensible that’s your view and you’re entitled to it but can you tell me what the carbon footprint of COP26 is? Thousands of people travelling from all over the world and staying all over Central Scotland and then travelling to and from Glasgow every day, all the contractors and security staff involved can’t be great for the environment. Joe Biden staying in Edinburgh and travelling by motorcade or Marine 1 every day? Have the whole thing on Zoom/Teams if your serious about doing something about climate change.

 

[320320]

Compared to the stated goals of COP26 (which is exactly the comparison I made and that you've bolded), yes, it definitely is.

One of these things can long-term affect billions of people across the globe (not hyperbole [1]), potentially having an effect on millions of deaths (also not hyperbole [2]).

The other is a ~thousand people who, having now spent the last 2 hours reading the last 10 pages of this thread, seem to want a little more time off, and/or "fairer" pay compared to some of their compatriots. (I'm still not clear what the RMT's demands are, but that seems to be what everyone has spent the last ~300 posts arguing about.)

I'm sure you'll agree that one of these things is not like the other.

Hence my stance that a strike during COP26 is morally indefensible.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959378002000900
[2] https://www.proquest.com/openview/b...79bf9f1f9b/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=2043523



Pilots are only allowed to fly a certain number of hours (around 100 per month): https://aviation.stackexchange.com/...-to-how-many-hours-a-person-can-fly-per-month

And yet you don’t bother to criticise Scotrail or the Scottish government for their role in allowing such a trivial issue to impact the “once-in-a-lifetime event that is COP26.

If you’re unclear as to what the RMTs demands are you’d be better researching that before you criticise the members for their “selfish” actions.

 

[Starmill]

Chiltern have lots of staff who are trained as booking office, gateline and platform and sometimes do all of those roles. They also used to have a lot of staff who were trained to work gateline, authorised collector for onboard revenue protection and safety critical guard for certain types of rolling stock (such as the old 'bubble car').

I have seen pilots cleaning the aircraft between turn arounds.

Some train conductors do have 'spot cleaning' as part of their role as I understand it, including being issued with litter picking gloves and bin bags in some cases. Nothing like cleaning toilets or anything though just a litter pick.

 

[YellowBrick]

As for being morally reprehensible that’s your view and you’re entitled to it but can you tell me what the carbon footprint of COP26 is?

Morality is indeed a subjective thing. I'm not happy with the COP26 carbon footprint either, but that's offtopic, as is my cynical suspicion it won't provide the results we need.

There is never a good time for a strike but no union is going to look a gift horse like this in the mouth. To suspend action during the biggest bargaining chip we’ve had in a very long time would be foolish in the extreme.

Alas I agree: people are selfish and usually only look out for themselves not the bigger picture. Which is why we need COP26 even after Paris.


I suppose a good analogy would be the fire service turning up to Grenfell Tower but Thames Water (or whoever it is), decided that was a good time to turn off the water as a bargaining tool in their (hypothetical) long-running dispute to charge a pence more for water per k/t. Sure the fire service will struggle on, but it's still impacting the outcome. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't say that's morally reprehensible, yet the apart from the scales (time and deaths) it's a fairly apt analogy.

And yet you don’t bother to criticise Scotrail or the Scottish government for their role in allowing such a trivial issue to impact the “once-in-a-lifetime event that is COP26.

That's like blaming the negotiator for the hostage being killed when the negotiator failed to pay the ransom / release the political prisoners / whatever. The hostage takers are the ones choosing to take a hostage. [Edit - analogy changed]

If you’re unclear as to what the RMTs demands are you’d be better researching that before you criticise the members for their “selfish” actions.

As noted, I spent 2+ hours reading ~300 posts in this thread. That was research.

As someone else put it much earlier in this thread, RMT have a PR problem; they don't state in their public literature what they're pressing for. They only come across as militant, explicitly holding COP26 to ransom:

ScotRail COP26 strike action goes ahead

Rail union RMT says COP26 ScotRail strike action goes ahead as planned as company fail to get serious in talks today.

www.rmt.org.uk

> "There is still time to avoid the chaos of a transport shutdown during COP26 if the key players get back with some serious proposals. We remain available for talks but the ball is firmly in their court."

 

[LoogaBarooga]

That's like saying I should blame rape victims for not consenting to sex in the first place. If they'd only consented it wouldn't have been rape after all. Just like if the govt had consented to RMT's demands there wouldn't be a strike.

That's possibly the most ludicrous thing I've ever read.

 

[snookertam]

Again I think there’s a bit of a misconception on the issue of helping out with revenue protection. I’m sure when a guard or TE is spare, if you ask them nicely, they’ll help with queue busting. That’s them doing a favour to help out.

The issue becomes when time on revenue protection becomes booked work. If that cannot already be inserted into an existing diagram/booked work, then an additional diagram will need to be created to cover it. To create an additional diagram, you need enough staff employed in the grade to cover these turns of duty. If Scotrail are not willing to do this, the additional diagram shouldn’t be created.

The member of traincrew is either ‘spare’, meaning they have no booked work, or they are allocated to booked work by covering a diagram (or roster). They can’t be both. There is no middle ground on this. I appreciate this is difficult for those with no railway experience to grasp, but that’s the way the railway operates.

 

[Starmill]

but that’s the way the railway operates.

That might be the way it has always operated.

 

[snookertam]

That might be the way it has always operated.

And still does. If not then it introduces chaos which will undermine safety.

 

[kylemore]

Further thought: I also wonder if geopolitics will come into it too. The world's eyes will be on Scotland in a way they haven't been since probably the G8 at Gleneages in 2005. I suspect Nicola (Sturgeon) is going to be having words with people.

It is being made very clear that this is a UK event.

The Scottish Government and the FM are being systematically excluded from this event, the opportunity is certainly being used to play politics.

The majority of delegates will neither know nor particularly care what part of the UK they are in.

What effect the dispute will really have on the delegates, who will, I daresay, be mostly chauffeured and coached (depending on status), is debatable.

 

[Dieseldriver]

And still does. If not then it introduces chaos which will undermine safety.

Not arguing with your point but what do you mean when you say it will undermine safety?

 

[GLC]

I see both the COO of Scotrail, and a spokesperson for the Scottish Government, are saying that the last remaining issue with the RMT was over rest day working, and an offer over rest day working was made. Both these sources then say the RMT rejected the offer and are now no longer happy with the pay deal being offered, as opposed to the RDW. I cannot see any statement from RMT other than “get back around the table”, so does anyone have any information over what RMT is actually looking for here?

 

[Robertj21a]

I see both the COO of Scotrail, and a spokesperson for the Scottish Government, are saying that the last remaining issue with the RMT was over rest day working, and an offer over rest day working was made. Both these sources then say the RMT rejected the offer and are now no longer happy with the pay deal being offered, as opposed to the RDW. I cannot see any statement from RMT other than “get back around the table”, so does anyone have any information over what RMT is actually looking for here?

Don't the RMT explain the latest situation to their own members?

 

[PaulMc7]

Has anyone figured out what the RMT would accept before COP26 to end this utter farce?

The problem is they don't come across like people who are capable of communication and it shows on some of the comments of RMT members given the amount of confusion present.

The yo-yo of it's not about money when it's definitely part of the issue is another thing in itself. Do the RMT not believe £31000-33000 is enough to live on?

There also seems to be a bit of a political element growing too. RMT calling on the SNP to resolve it and Labour using it as a stick to beat the SNP with.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

I have to admit my toes curl any time I hear Mick Hogg getting interviewed on the issue, dearie me. The scary thing is he must be the best speak they have.

 

[Christmas]

Bob Crow was the best the RMT will ever see. He was an East End boy and spoke like one, no airs and graces BUT he had the knowledge, vocabulary and skill to run rings around people who thought he was a union thug and who tried to patronise him. Boris Johnson refused to appear on the same TV programmes and radio stations at the same time as Bob Crow because he knew Crow would have destroyed him. Sadly the RMT don't have anyone in the same league anymore. I'm all for calling a spade a spade but Hogg is often a complete embarrassment.

So, Transport Scotland could have sorted the original dispute in March by sanctioning the continuation of the RMT rest day agreement, completely cancelling the last 8 month's Sunday fiasco. That would have meant the RMT would have been treated the same as the other three unions in the recent wage negotiations and probably have reached a decision favourable to everyone. I'll repeat that this is the fault of Transport Scotland. Abellio has nothing to do with it and that is a fact. They were told by TS that they can't enter negotiations as there's no money. That's the root of the problem.

 

[PaulMc7]

Bob Crow was the best the RMT will ever see. He was an East End boy and spoke like one, no airs and graces BUT he had the knowledge, vocabulary and skill to run rings around people who thought he was a union thug and who tried to patronise him. Boris Johnson refused to appear on the same TV programmes and radio stations at the same time as Bob Crow because he knew Crow would have destroyed him. Sadly the RMT don't have anyone in the same league anymore. I'm all for calling a spade a spade but Hogg is often a complete embarrassment.

So, Transport Scotland could have sorted the original dispute in March by sanctioning the continuation of the RMT rest day agreement, completely cancelling the last 8 month's Sunday fiasco. That would have meant the RMT would have been treated the same as the other three unions in the recent wage negotiations and probably have reached a decision favourable to everyone. I'll repeat that this is the fault of Transport Scotland. Abellio has nothing to do with it and that is a fact. They were told by TS that they can't enter negotiations as there's no money. That's the root of the problem.

I agree with you regarding Transport Scotland but at the same time by failing to accept that there's no money RMT are just as bad in my opinion. There's been a hell of a lot of money thrown at the railway. The pot was going to be empty at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if more service cuts and ultimately job losses come if something is agreed. The only difference with RMT and the other unions is that the others took what they could get for now. The RMT stubbornness is a big issue.

 

[Christmas]

I agree with you regarding Transport Scotland but at the same time by failing to accept that there's no money RMT are just as bad in my opinion. There's been a hell of a lot of money thrown at the railway. The pot was going to be empty at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if more service cuts and ultimately job losses come if something is agreed. The only difference with RMT and the other unions is that the others took what they could get for now. The RMT stubbornness is a big issue.

You must have missed the ballot for strike action by the engineering grades, the ridiculous first offer to ASLEF that involved no money but more flexibility from drivers, and the offer to TSSA that was going nowhere. Transport Scotland has the money. CalMac is the state owned ferry company that runs at a complete loss, yet they were given a rise with no strings...

 

[PaulMc7]

You must have missed the ballot for strike action by the engineering grades, the ridiculous first offer to ASLEF that involved no money but more flexibility from drivers, and the offer to TSSA that was going nowhere. Transport Scotland has the money. CalMac is the state owned ferry company that runs at a complete loss, yet they were given a rise with no strings...

The key thing with that though is they've all accepted offers now which takes away from what is left. It may have taken a long time for things to be accepted but now only one union hasn't. Calmac is entirely different too given that people literally can't leave islands with their ferries so it pretty much has to be funded.

When you think about how much money has been thrown into trains, buses etc I can imagine some accountants are having major headaches right now regarding what percentage of budgets are left. It's the same away from public transport too. Council budgets are practically non-existent due to Covid.

There's a lack of realism in the rail industry and RMT in particular. Taking the 4.7% over 2 years was the right move but they didn't and this fiasco will just roll on and on.

It's also worth noting that the rail budget when it was announced last year was more than double ferry and bus and concession travel combined. The rail industry has been protected massively during this.

 

[GLC]

Don't the RMT explain the latest situation to their own members?

I’ve no idea. I’m not an RMT member, and as far as I can work out, there are no concrete details available publicly on the RMT website

 

[InOban]

The calmac award was the second part of a two year deal. The second year was an index-linked increase.

 

[Starmill]

They were told by TS that they can't enter negotiations as there's no money. That's the root of the problem.

Do you have a suggestion as to where the money should be coming from to fund an optional extra payment?

CalMac is the state owned ferry company that runs at a complete loss

Just like the railway will be very shortly. Except the railway loses rather more than CalMac.

 

[Christmas]

The calmac award was the second part of a two year deal. The second year was an index-linked increase.ASL

Do you have a suggestion as to where the money should be coming from to fund an optional extra payment?


Just like the railway will be very shortly. Except the railway loses rather more than CalMac.

ScotRail has made real terms profit for Abellio?

Aren't forum staff supposed to neutral and not subjective?

 

[Starmill]

ScotRail has made real terms profit for Abellio?

Contractors for railway operation may make a profit, but in the case of ScotRail (or all operators everywhere since the pandemic) this is paid for out of public subsidy as part of the operating contract. There's no feasible way for most Scottish routes to cover their own operating costs. Routes like the Highland Mainline couldn't hope to come close.

 

[Darandio]

Aren't forum staff supposed to neutral and not subjective?

No? They are entitled to offer opinion just the way you are.

 

[JamesT]

ScotRail has made real terms profit for Abellio?

It doesn’t appear so. Searching for news stories about Scotrail and Abellio or the parent NS comes up with stories like https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/abellio-scotrail-records-operating-loss-of-79m
Looks more like the Dutch government is subsidising Scottish railways rather than making a profit from it.

 

[92002]

Contractors for railway operation may make a profit, but in the case of ScotRail this is paid for out of public subsidy as part of the operating contract. There's no feasible way for most Scottish routes to cover their own operating costs. Routes like the Highland Mainline couldn't hope to come close.

Last figure I read was Abellio had lost £350m operating the current contract.