Scotrail looks to procure supplier for Fife <> Edinburgh peak services from December 2020

fgwrich

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Apologies if it has already been covered before (or is buried deep in another thread - forum search didn't bring anything up). It appears that as a result of the the stock shortages affecting all the TOCs for the next few years, Transport Scotland has issued a tender for further stock - heavily leaning towards Loco Hauled as mentioned in the tender, up to 2024. The stock has to be PRM Compliant and is likely to continue running in the path of the current fife circle loco hauled services.

https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV373366

In summary:

Section VI: Complementary information
VI.3) Additional information
Each service will consist of a minimum of 370 standard class seats. There must be a minimum of 3 toilets per service, one of which shall be universally accessible. Vehicles must be fitted with toilet retention tanks and comply with the Persons of Reduced Mobility TSI [and other relevant legislation].

ASR is specifically seeking responses from suppliers who can provide a turnkey solution, ie. operate and maintain the rolling stock. We anticipate this will be through use of Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock with supplier providing loco, coaches, driver and maintenance. ASR will provide a conductor on each passenger service.

We may however consider the following options if these can be provided in a more cost effective and resilient manner:

- Diesel multiple units are offered on an appropriate lease. ASR will operate the services providing driver, conductor and maintenance staff as required;

- Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock is offered and leased directly by ASR. ASR maintain the stock. The supplier provides locomotive and driver with ASR providing a conductor on each passenger service.

We invite expressions of interest which set out the potential suppliers preferred route for providing the services. ASR will then prepare appropriate tender documentation which reflects the market capability to supply the services we require.

NOTE: To register your interest in this notice and obtain any additional information please visit the Public Contracts Scotland Web Site at https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/Search/Search_Switch.aspx?ID=605957.

(SC Ref:605957)

Moderator note: for speculation regarding this tender please use https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...loco-hauled-scotrail-services-in-fife.197946/
 
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DarloRich

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point of order: That doesn't look like a tender. It looks like a PIN ( Prior Information Notice)

A PIN is is a notice published in the OJEU which sets out a contracting authority's purchasing intentions. It does not oblige the contracting authority to proceed with a procurement process, but informs the market that they should expect a procurement to be commenced within the next 12 months

Essentially Scotrail are saying: We want procure some passenger vehicles for certain services. We think they need to be carriages hauled by a locomotive but are open to your comments. We think you are best placed to deliver a complete train to us but are open to your comments. Interested?
 

tbtc

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point of order: That doesn't look like a tender. It looks like a PIN ( Prior Information Notice)

A PIN is is a notice published in the OJEU which sets out a contracting authority's purchasing intentions. It does not oblige the contracting authority to proceed with a procurement process, but informs the market that they should expect a procurement to be commenced within the next 12 months

Essentially Scotrail are saying: We want procure some passenger vehicles for certain services. We think they need to be carriages hauled by a locomotive but are open to your comments. We think you are best placed to deliver a complete train to us but are open to your comments. Interested?
Thanks for explaining.

Seems a sensible way ahead - Transport Scotland want to give people plenty of notice that there'll possibly be a tender at some stage in the future (so that this doesn't catch companies by surprise, they want to ensure that several companies will bid at a good price)

They are suggesting what kind of thing they want, without prescribing it so strictly that only one bidder has a reasonable chance of winning (i.e. my understanding is that Virgin had to go through the rigmarole of asking other companies to tender for the additional 390 carriages even though it'd have taken a miracle for anyone other than Alstom to build them) - and loose enough that a bidder can offer a variety of "solutions" (I'm sure they'd consider, say, three 158s, if that gave a similar capacity to a five coach loco-hauled rake - and it doesn't restrict bidders to only one type of carriages.

Interesting to get an insight into how this kind of thing goes on behind the scenes.

(but at the same time, frustrating that Fife is left with the old diesel stock whilst the rest of the country seems to be getting new trains and electrification - and a very cumbersome way of providing stock for the sake of a rush hour run - e.g. the train has to depart Motherwell over two hours before it departs Waverley in the evening peak - but I guess this complicated/ expensive method must be better than the alternatives...)
 

Far north 37

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Thanks for explaining.

Seems a sensible way ahead - Transport Scotland want to give people plenty of notice that there'll possibly be a tender at some stage in the future (so that this doesn't catch companies by surprise, they want to ensure that several companies will bid at a good price)

They are suggesting what kind of thing they want, without prescribing it so strictly that only one bidder has a reasonable chance of winning (i.e. my understanding is that Virgin had to go through the rigmarole of asking other companies to tender for the additional 390 carriages even though it'd have taken a miracle for anyone other than Alstom to build them) - and loose enough that a bidder can offer a variety of "solutions" (I'm sure they'd consider, say, three 158s, if that gave a similar capacity to a five coach loco-hauled rake - and it doesn't restrict bidders to only one type of carriages.

Interesting to get an insight into how this kind of thing goes on behind the scenes.

(but at the same time, frustrating that Fife is left with the old diesel stock whilst the rest of the country seems to be getting new trains and electrification - and a very cumbersome way of providing stock for the sake of a rush hour run - e.g. the train has to depart Motherwell over two hours before it departs Waverley in the evening peak - but I guess this complicated/ expensive method must be better than the alternatives...)
Most of the services north of the central are run by old stock hsts even though refubished 156 and 158s in the north and west highlands now 30 years old so not just fife limited to older stock.
 

MatthewRead

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Just to update this thread from WNXX the current diagrams are due to finish from the May 2020 timetable however they haven't said what will take over.
 

Clansman

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Just to update this thread from WNXX the current diagrams are due to finish from the May 2020 timetable however they haven't said what will take over.
If I'm not mistaken, derogation for the Mk2s to keep running post 2019, along with the remaining Classic HSTs, has been extended until December this year, so whatever is on WNXX about May is simply to do with the diagrams that would potentially alter slightly as a result of the timetable change. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
 

David M

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May have been previously explained in which case, sorry, but...why don't Scotrail run those services themselves? I thought that back in the day it was due to a lack of rolling stock but with the electrification of Glasgow/Edinburgh and 14 or so HSTs having arrived, is this still the case and, if so, why?
 

Class 170101

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May have been previously explained in which case, sorry, but...why don't Scotrail run those services themselves? I thought that back in the day it was due to a lack of rolling stock but with the electrification of Glasgow/Edinburgh and 14 or so HSTs having arrived, is this still the case and, if so, why?
Scotrail may still be short as some Class 158s / 170s have headed south to Northern etc.
 
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I struggle to believe with current demand levels (and which are likely to be ongoing) that an operator will be short of stock come May!
 

InOban

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ScotRail have confirmed that they now have enough HSTs to release sufficient 170s such that the Fife loco-hauled trains will not be returning.
 

Clansman

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I assume this implies the Mk2s won't be returning, rather than the complete withdrawel of the Fife LHCS until at least the December timetable change or the following May, when DMU services are ramped up like they should have been by now had there not been the bugger ups with the HSTs and 385s.
 

InOban

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The loco hauled services will not be returning. When the full timetable needs to be restored these peak services will be operated by dmus released by the arrival of the HSTs.
 

Clansman

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The loco hauled services will not be returning. When the full timetable needs to be restored these peak services will be operated by dmus released by the arrival of the HSTs.
Struggling to understand where the extra DMUs are coming from all of a sudden, given a tender was issued for the sourcing and operation of PRM'd LHCS fairly recently, to operate from around December.
 
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gingertom

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Struggling to understand where the extra DMUs are coming from all of a sudden, given a tender was issued for the sourcing and operation of PRM'd LHCS fairly recently, to operate from around December.
I can only think the tender was issued as a backside-covering exercise in case Wabtec failed to deliver sufficient modified HST sets in time to release sufficient DMUs to cover the Fife services.
 

Clansman

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I can only think the tender was issued as a backside-covering exercise in case Wabtec failed to deliver sufficient modified HST sets in time to release sufficient DMUs to cover the Fife services.
A backside covering for 2-4 DMUs for a late HST order they had been peddling the line that they were anticipating full service by December - even at the point the tender was issued - and with the knowledge that DMU services are going to be substantially increased in the coming months?

Doesn't make much sense to me. All seems quite vague to pin it on the HSTs when there's other variables that could potentially be at play in this decision.
 

jopsuk

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Have they confirmed that the tendering for December onwards is dead? All that seems to be confirmed for now is the end of the mark 2s early.

given <everything>, could it be an anticipation that up till December there will be no need, but beyond, if they're returning to providing full capacity, they might need (accessibility law compliant) sets?
 

Far north 37

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A backside covering for 2-4 DMUs for a late HST order they had been peddling the line that they were anticipating full service by December - even at the point the tender was issued - and with the knowledge that DMU services are going to be substantially increased in the coming months?

Doesn't make much sense to me. All seems quite vague to pin it on the HSTs when there's other variables that could potentially be at play in this decision.
Tender was till the end of next year with an option to extend every year so not sure it's to do with the hst's either.
 

Clansman

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Have they confirmed that the tendering for December onwards is dead? All that seems to be confirmed for now is the end of the mark 2s early.

given <everything>, could it be an anticipation that up till December there will be no need, but beyond, if they're returning to providing full capacity, they might need (accessibility law compliant) sets?
That's what I had assumed. It makes sense if that's the case. I don't see why it isn't. Every HST refurb that is delivered displaces a DMU. So long as the doubling of some frequencies is deffered like it already is, there will be the flexibility to get rid of the Mk2s and strengthen existing services.
 

NorthClyde320

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I have noticed that from the postponed/delayed/cancelled May timetable change that the Mon to Fri peak Fife to Queen St working was withdrawn, with the 17.33 ex Queen St now going to Stirling instead, presumably with a 385 instead of a dmu, so that would have released another dmu
 

norbitonflyer

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I have noticed that from the postponed/delayed/cancelled May timetable change that the Mon to Fri peak Fife to Queen St working was withdrawn, with the 17.33 ex Queen St now going to Stirling instead, presumably with a 385 instead of a dmu, so that would have released another dmu
Does there have to be a formal closure notice (or a once-in-a-blue moon "Parliamentary")? Its exemption under the "Speller Amendment" expired nineteen years ago
 

37424

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I would think they are hedging their bets, after all they are keeping more 170's than was originally planned so once all the HST's arrive you would expect them to have enough.
 

Steven_G

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The rate that the HST’s are now being delivered would mean that they will all be in service before end of this year.

Peak services only does imply a shortfall of stock and as its to end of lease, it’s not a temporary one. Maybe a few short 170’s are being doubled up after loading numbers analysed?
 

37424

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The rate that the HST’s are now being delivered would mean that they will all be in service before end of this year.

Peak services only does imply a shortfall of stock and as its to end of lease, it’s not a temporary one. Maybe a few short 170’s are being doubled up after loading numbers analysed?
Scotrail are retaining 13 170's over what was originally planned for increasing growth, now it seems to me it was probably a hedge bet on whether units retained was likely to be enough to meet that increasing demand, there may well have an element to cover delays to rolling stock delivery. In any case given the way the virus has put things back I doubt it will materialise.

About the only likely rolling stock available to meet that spec are MK4's and I suspect it requires a reasonable length contract in order for it to be worthwhile for somebody to take up a lease for this rolling stock
 

Class 170101

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About the only likely rolling stock available to meet that spec are MK4's and I suspect it requires a reasonable length contract in order for it to be worthwhile for somebody to take up a lease for this rolling stock
Are Mark IVs cleared for Fife Routes as I'm sure they have never been there.
 

gingertom

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Are Mark IVs cleared for Fife Routes as I'm sure they have never been there.
it's been mentioned somewhere on the forum that MK IVs underwent a paint job at Rosyth early on, so they must have been cleared to be taken there and back as ECS. Different matter being cleared for passenger service though.
 

Clansman

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Scotrail are retaining 13 170's over what was originally planned for increasing growth, now it seems to me it was probably a hedge bet on whether units retained was likely to be enough to meet that increasing demand, there may well have an element to cover delays to rolling stock delivery. In any case given the way the virus has put things back I doubt it will materialise.

About the only likely rolling stock available to meet that spec are MK4's and I suspect it requires a reasonable length contract in order for it to be worthwhile for somebody to take up a lease for this rolling stock
I doubt in ScotRail's mind that when the 13 units were retained that they had envisaged that they would face a DMU shortage due to the 385 and HST fiascos, and the reopening of the Leven branch.

If I remember rightly, the additional DMU services to Tayside (and around Invernesshire I think?) were supplmented by these units. Leven reopening will take up another couple of units in the longer term - but with the increased Tayside services yet to commence from Glasgow, I can only guess that the HST delivery rate and the Covid pandemic has allowed a margin from now up until the major timetable changes happen, which allows ScotRail to absorb them into the rest of the diagrams that couldn't have been completely satisfied up until now. Hence the Mk2s getting binned as early as they have been. Unless more DMUs can be sourced (that, or I'm missing something), to me it looks unsustainable for when the full promised timetable comes into effect when everything is done and dusted re HSTs, which I'd like to think explains the tender for PRM LHCS in the medium term.
 

fgwrich

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Interestingly, I wonder if we really have seen the last of the Mk2s as Riviera is about to undergo a trial of fitting toilet retention tanks to some of its Mk2s. There is also the ex FGW Vehicles operated by Riviera too which do have a universally accessible.
 

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