Scotrail - Post Covid Consultation - Service Reductions

[Falcon1200]

As another poster said I think it is the only passenger service (definitely most Grangemouth freights use this also) that uses the southern side of the Carmuirs triangle. Despite custom being very light on this service between Cumbernauld and Grahamston, this was a service that existed beforehand so I’m assuming they are just reverting to that. I think Stirling has a decent amount of trains to Queen Street already.

I was thinking more of easy connections between Cumbernauld and further north at Stirling. Perhaps, if the service is half-hourly, the destination could alternate between Grahamston and Stirling, providing an hourly service to each ?

 

[scotrail158713]

Interestingly, ScotRail are tweeting tonight that they’re introducing SOR and SVR tickets from Glasgow to Edinburgh because “You asked for it so we’ve delivered it” the SVR is £18.40 and has no evening peak restriction. As someone points out in reply, they’re going to see a big reduction in Glasgow to Eskbank ticket sales (first place you can buy a SVR to). Also 50p cheaper than the Eskbank ticket.

https://twitter.com/scotrail/status/1432377833926578178?s=21

Still a lot pricier than Citylink if you’re not in a rush.

Citylink have tweeted in relation to this as well

https://twitter.com/scotcitylink/status/1432613798024818688?s=21

You can #GoCoach between Glasgow and Edinburgh for only £10 - all day, every day! Just putting it out there!

 

[Stopper]

I was thinking more of easy connections between Cumbernauld and further north at Stirling. Perhaps, if the service is half-hourly, the destination could alternate between Grahamston and Stirling, providing an hourly service to each ?

This is possible. The old service between Queen Street and Cumbernauld used to have one service turn back at Cumbernauld while the other went to Grahamston and turned back at the Grangemouth branch. There were suggestions for years that the Motherwell-Cumbernauld services could extend to Stirling and serve Larbert too. Certainly no shortage of bays at Stirling.

In general though, the Cumbernauld line just isn’t very well used. The poor location of Cumbernauld station, strong bus links and the nearby better-served Croy having quicker links to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Stirling works against Cumbernauld.

 

[Class83]

As another poster said I think it is the only passenger service (definitely most Grangemouth freights use this also) that uses the southern side of the Carmuirs triangle. Despite custom being very light on this service between Cumbernauld and Grahamston, this was a service that existed beforehand so I’m assuming they are just reverting to that. I think Stirling has a decent amount of trains to Queen Street already.

There is apparently one train per day still doing the full Fife Circle loop, again I suspect that it's to avoid any questions about removing a service from a section of track.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Why is there a evening peak restriction between Glasgow and Edinburgh but not local Glasgow routes?

Dates from the days of SPT subsidising the train service. Which is why our fares here in Strathclyde are very cheap.

 

[ld0595]

East Dunbartonshire Council are to challenge the proposed reduction from 4tph to 2tph on the Milngavie line.

Council to challenge proposed reduced rail service on Milngavie line

A MOTION was agreed by East Dunbartonshire Council last week to challenge the proposed reduction rail service on the Glasgow to Milngavie line.

www.glasgowtimes.co.uk

Council to challenge ScotRail's proposed reduced rail service on Milngavie line
A motion was agreed by East Dunbartonshire Council last week to challenge the proposed reduction rail service on the Glasgow to Milngavie line. The proposed reduction from four services to two services per hour during off-peak times is part of ScotRail's 'Fit for the Future' timetable review. The review is taking place to bring in post-pandemic timetables from May 2022, with the halving of off-peak trains being in comparison to pre-pandemic timetables.

Joint council leader Vaughan Moody said: "ScotRail is suggesting that their timetable review is to ensure the service meets both the needs of customers and the aims of the Scottish Government as Scotland recovers from the pandemic. The reality is that to review amounts to a wholesale cut in services, on a line that has been frankly unreliable for a number of years, with the numbers of trains operating off-peak on weekdays and during the day on Saturdays being halved from four to two an hour. This is unacceptable and we need commitments to a frequent, reliable service."

The council has raised the issue of poor performance on the line with ScotRail and the Scottish Government in recent years, and they believe reducing the service will impact commuters to the city centre and tourists to East Dunbartonshire. Joint council leader Andrew Polson said: "In a unanimous decision, this Council calls on ScotRail, Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government to confirm that services will not be reduced on the Milngavie line - and seeks a commitment to improving service performance, which has been unacceptable for the people of this area for some time now. Surely with the backdrop of the UN climate conference we should be enhancing sustainable, public transport, not diminishing it."

The details of the motion confirm the council believes given the climate crisis the use of public transport should be promoted, communities and residents in Milngavie should not be disadvantaged by the proposed reduction, and the reduction will make it less attractive for tourists which is critical to the local economy.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

East Dunbartonshire Council are to challenge the proposed reduction from 4tph to 2tph on the Milngavie line.

Council to challenge proposed reduced rail service on Milngavie line

A MOTION was agreed by East Dunbartonshire Council last week to challenge the proposed reduction rail service on the Glasgow to Milngavie line.

www.glasgowtimes.co.uk

Good on em need more local councils to speak up for their local communities

 

[Scotrail314209]

East Dunbartonshire Council are to challenge the proposed reduction from 4tph to 2tph on the Milngavie line.

Council to challenge proposed reduced rail service on Milngavie line

A MOTION was agreed by East Dunbartonshire Council last week to challenge the proposed reduction rail service on the Glasgow to Milngavie line.

www.glasgowtimes.co.uk

Very good call from them, I should hope that other councils do similar.

I hope that South Ayrshire council challenges the halving of Ayr - Glasgow off-peak services, used to be 4tph with 2tph all stations and 2tph non stop Kilwinning - Glasgow. Now it's just 2tph with an occasional fast added in.

Scotrail's 'fit for the future' timetable really is just a fancy name to disguise cuts.

 

[PaulMc7]

Is there enough of a passenger base in Milngavie to warrant 4 trains an hour off peak? There's also 5 buses an hour too with West Coast Motors having the 15 one an hour then First have the X10/X10A one an hour then the 60A is 3 an hour.

 

[adrock1976]

Is there enough of a passenger base in Milngavie to warrant 4 trains an hour off peak? There's also 5 buses an hour too with West Coast Motors having the 15 one an hour then First have the X10/X10A one an hour then the 60A is 3 an hour.

Don't forget Milngavie is promoted as the start of the West Highland Way footpath to Fort William.

The 4tph dates back to 2005, which tied in with the Hamilton Central - Larkhall reopening.

Regarding the buses, I believe that they run along Maryhill Road, with the only stations that First Bus (both Glasgow and Larbert operations) meet along the way are Hillfoot and Maryhill Park (not possible to travel on a direct train from Milngavie, Hillfoot, or Western to Maryhill Park, even though the West Highland trains run that way).

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't forget Milngavie is promoted as the start of the West Highland Way footpath to Fort William.

Having personally spent an awful lot of time on or near the West Highland way, including much this year (in what was a bumper summer for the route), I can confidently say that the number of people travelling to Milngavie to walk the route at the peak of such activity would comfortably fit on one train per day

 

[PaulMc7]

Having personally spent an awful lot of time on or near the West Highland way, including much this year (in what was a bumper summer for the route), I can confidently say that the number of people travelling to Milngavie to walk the route at the peak of such activity would comfortably fit on one train per day

This is along the lines of what I've thought even pre-covid. I've only ever got the train from Milngavie twice and both times were extremely quiet. It strikes me as a very car centric town especially as you can go in plenty of directions fairly easily with a car.

 

[Bikeman78]

Very good call from them, I should hope that other councils do similar.

I hope that South Ayrshire council challenges the halving of Ayr - Glasgow off-peak services, used to be 4tph with 2tph all stations and 2tph non stop Kilwinning - Glasgow. Now it's just 2tph with an occasional fast added in.

Scotrail's 'fit for the future' timetable really is just a fancy name to disguise cuts.

During the class 318 era, the Ayr trains were the fastest. Now they stop everywhere most of the time. I wonder if they'll move the stops back to the Largs and Ardrossan trains.

 

[hexagon789]

During the class 318 era, the Ayr trains were the fastest. Now they stop everywhere most of the time. I wonder if they'll move the stops back to the Largs and Ardrossan trains.

Either that or altering the calling patterns to even out the stops among services. As I recall that was the way the smaller stops Paisley-Kilwinning were split between the Largs & Ardrossan trains pre-4 Ayr trains per hour arrangement.

 

[Scotrail314209]

During the class 318 era, the Ayr trains were the fastest. Now they stop everywhere most of the time. I wonder if they'll move the stops back to the Largs and Ardrossan trains.

Either that or altering the calling patterns to even out the stops among services. As I recall that was the way the smaller stops Paisley-Kilwinning were split between the Largs & Ardrossan trains pre-4 Ayr trains per hour arrangement.

Prior to the major 2015 Ayrshire recast, the Ayr services were fast from Kilwinning to Johnstone, with the Largs trains doing Kilwinning, Glengarnock, Milliken Park and Johnstone, with the Ardrossan Harbour services calling at all stops between Kilwinning and Johnstone.

In a sense, the intermediate stations still have a good service nowadays with 2tph at Lochwinnoch, Howwood and Milliken Park with 3tph at Glengarnock and Dalry, even 3tph Ayr - Glasgow off-peak would be a good compromise.

 

[hexagon789]

Prior to the major 2015 Ayrshire recast, the Ayr services were fast from Kilwinning to Johnstone, with the Largs trains doing Kilwinning, Glengarnock, Milliken Park and Johnstone, with the Ardrossan Harbour services calling at all stops between Kilwinning and Johnstone.

In a sense, the intermediate stations still have a good service nowadays with 2tph at Lochwinnoch, Howwood and Milliken Park with 3tph at Glengarnock and Dalry, even 3tph Ayr - Glasgow off-peak would be a good compromise.

I'd overlooked that the Ardrossans were the all stations workings but I remember the Miliken Park and Glengarnock calls in all the Largs trains.

I think certain of the Ayr and Largs trains made seemingly random and sparodic extra calls at the likes of Lochwinnoch, Howwood and Dalry as well.

3tph would be a reasonable compromise but would the 3rd train be a fast as before or would you try and balance the stops with it and the other two services?

It's all rather messy I have to say!

 

[Scotrail314209]

I'd overlooked that the Ardrossans were the all stations workings but I remember the Miliken Park and Glengarnock calls in all the Largs trains.

I think certain of the Ayr and Largs trains made seemingly random and sparodic extra calls at the likes of Lochwinnoch, Howwood and Dalry as well.

3tph would be a reasonable compromise but would the 3rd train be a fast as before or would you try and balance the stops with it and the other two services?

It's all rather messy I have to say!

I'd definitely have it as a fast service, perhaps with scope to introduce a 2nd fast service at key off-peak times, perhaps around 9/10am to Glasgow and 2/3 pm to Ayr, which will help shift the people wanting to dodge the busier services at around 4/5pm.

The stopping variations tended to happen more in the morning peak, some of which still remain today. I believe there was also an Ayr service in the morning which was non stop from Irvine to Paisley.

It definitely is a mess, unfortunately Gourock seems to be suffering too with it being in the same situation as Ayr.

 

[hexagon789]

I'd definitely have it as a fast service, perhaps with scope to introduce a 2nd fast service at key off-peak times, perhaps around 9/10am to Glasgow and 2/3 pm to Ayr, which will help shift the people wanting to dodge the busier services at around 4/5pm.

The stopping variations tended to happen more in the morning peak, some of which still remain today. I believe there was also an Ayr service in the morning which was non stop from Irvine to Paisley.

It definitely is a mess, unfortunately Gourock seems to be suffering too with it being in the same situation as Ayr.

Is Gourock down to 3 or 2 off-peak from 4?

 

[Scotrail314209]

Is Gourock down to 3 or 2 off-peak from 4?

Same as Ayr, 2tph off-peak with an occasional fast.

 

[duffers2324]

Its hard to imagine that just a few years ago, Milngavie had the Edinburgh trains along with Helensburgh and used to skip stop alternately, along with the Motherwell services and now is just down to the Springburn services every half an hour, As has been mentioned the Ayr and Gourock trains have been pretty slashed across the board, I mean heck it tells you we are in a bad situation when the flagship service of the whole lot the EnG is still running half hourly albeit with 8 coaches as opposed to every 15 and 6 coaches as before, I know Covid is the main driver behind these timetables at the moment and looking like into the future at the moment but i would have thought that there would be even slight uplifts to a degree from December.

The other thing that is bugging me slightly in regards to this current period of timetables and that i hoped they might change is the fact all of the Queen St LL services go via Singer at the moment or onto that branch ie Milngavies up to Westerton, and then Central LL services are biased towards the Yoker line apart from the Larkhall and cumbernauld services coming to and from Dalmuir respectively, I think its about time they spread some of the services out on both lines and into both Low level stations because at the moment a journey like Queen St to Yoker cant be made without a change at Partick or Hyndland.

The other thing i would maybe liked to have seen is a bit of "Interchange" between both lines as it where so rather than it just be North clyde line trains to North clyde destinations and same for Argyle Line trains, have something like
Balloch-Motherwell
Dumbarton Central-Carstairs

I know this would probably be murder to try and plan and roster etc but just to try and open up some different destinations with a direct train rather than a change somewhere along the line.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Its hard to imagine that just a few years ago, Milngavie had the Edinburgh trains along with Helensburgh and used to skip stop alternately, along with the Motherwell services and now is just down to the Springburn services every half an hour, As has been mentioned the Ayr and Gourock trains have been pretty slashed across the board, I mean heck it tells you we are in a bad situation when the flagship service of the whole lot the EnG is still running half hourly albeit with 8 coaches as opposed to every 15 and 6 coaches as before, I know Covid is the main driver behind these timetables at the moment and looking like into the future at the moment but i would have thought that there would be even slight uplifts to a degree from December.

The other thing that is bugging me slightly in regards to this current period of timetables and that i hoped they might change is the fact all of the Queen St LL services go via Singer at the moment or onto that branch ie Milngavies up to Westerton, and then Central LL services are biased towards the Yoker line apart from the Larkhall and cumbernauld services coming to and from Dalmuir respectively, I think its about time they spread some of the services out on both lines and into both Low level stations because at the moment a journey like Queen St to Yoker cant be made without a change at Partick or Hyndland.

The other thing i would maybe liked to have seen is a bit of "Interchange" between both lines as it where so rather than it just be North clyde line trains to North clyde destinations and same for Argyle Line trains, have something like
Balloch-Motherwell
Dumbarton Central-Carstairs

I know this would probably be murder to try and plan and roster etc but just to try and open up some different destinations with a direct train rather than a change somewhere along the line.

The situation really is pathing particularly for the services through Partick.

You’ll also struggle to get a Dumbarton to Carstairs service through the flat junction at Rutherglen given that’s already busy enough.

 

[Deltic1961]

Great news is I now know where Milngavie is. And it's nowhere near where I thought it was.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I hope the Borders council challenges the halving in Borders railway frequency, apparently these services are getting very busy now and 1tph off-peak just won't cut it.

Glasgow Suburban is looking to face one of it's worst frequencies in decades, particularly with the stripping down of Gourock, Ayr and Cathcart Circle service.

 

[Dr Day]

Are any of the councils challenging the service reductions prepared to put their hands in their pockets to make up the shortfall in funding beyond that TS have (presumably) indicated they are prepared to make? Someone has to...

 

[mcmad]

Presumably none of the councils objecting are SNP run making this more of a political exercise than an objective objection.

 

[tbtc]

even 3tph Ayr - Glasgow off-peak would be a good compromise

I guess the problem is that the vast majority of services out of Central are based on half hourly service patterns, so running 3tph might be messy - would you mean two "stoppers" and one "fast" service?

Great news is I now know where Milngavie is. And it's nowhere near where I thought it was.

Ah, but do you know how to pronounce it?

Presumably none of the councils objecting are SNP run making this more of a political exercise than an objective objection.

Should that be an issue?

I'd want my local elected representatives (councillors, MSPs, MPs) to make a noise if I was seeing half the trains at my local station getting cut - especially as slashing the train frequencies to places like Kirkcaldy is likely to be one of the first acts of a "Green" coalition - or are we not allowed to complain since that'd be "a political exercise"?

 

[Scotrail314209]

I guess the problem is that the vast majority of services out of Central are based on half hourly service patterns, so running 3tph might be messy - would you mean two "stoppers" and one "fast" service?

Yeah, thats what I mean.

 

[Bikeman78]

Same as Ayr, 2tph off-peak with an occasional fast.

The fast is one unit doing a round trip every two hours. I don't really know why they bother. The really stupid part is that it runs two minutes ahead of the Wemyss Bay train with the same stopping pattern to Port Glasgow.

 

[Scotrail314209]

The fast is one unit doing a round trip every two hours. I don't really know why they bother. The really stupid part is that it runs two minutes ahead of the Wemyss Bay train with the same stopping pattern to Port Glasgow.

Really the Gourock should run at XX:25 to give a 4tph service where possible, that's just silly.

 

[Bikeman78]

Really the Gourock should run at XX:25 to give a 4tph service where possible, that's just silly.

Yes if the Gourock fast ran hourly at XX:25 that would be much more sensible. Basically back to how it was 10-15 years ago. As I said, if it's not deemed worthwhile running the fast train hourly then knock it on the head.