Scotrail - Post Covid Consultation - Service Reductions

[Dr Day]

Benefit for the taxpayer?

 

[kez19]

It would appear to me that many of these changes do not encourage rail travel for the vast majority of people. I know personally from bitter experience that the trains in the pre-pandemic morning peak that came from Dundee and called at all Fife stations were always RAMMED, especially when 2 carriage 158s were the standard operator. It would seem that these services will become the norm which will inevitably push passengers onto buses and into cars. It also seems that Perth people will be "treated" to a grand tour of Fife everyday, calling at every lamppost along the way, which will cause people from Perth to jump back in their cars, and people from places like Dunfermline will see these services initially get busier, then decide it isn't for them and get the X55 into EDB. I honestly can't find a single benefit for anyone among any of this

The only benefit out of this will be people will be likely to use cars more but on the “competitive” side of public transport, they have just handed the keys over to Stagecoach/Megabus (bus companies in general)

 

[Scotrail12]

I think that the North Clyde timetable is a pile of rubbish at the minute - seems like all EB trains through Queen St LL are within a 10 min window (Airdrie, Springburn then Edinburgh) and then there is 20 mins of nothing. They need to resolve that.

Why is there also no direct train from Qst LL to Yoker branch or Ctl LL to Milngavie? They removed them for no reason. All that does is create extra congestion at the Partick/Hyndland interchanges.

It seems crazy that I'd have to wait 20 mins to get from Partick/Charing Cross to High Street or even High Street to Blairhill.

 

[Starmill]

If this is indeed long term what does it actually achieve? Reduced revenue/passengers? Not exactly first class railway for Scotland that’s for sure! (first class maybe a stretch)

In terms of the Sunday strikes what happens if there is no solution what are the unions and the Scottish Government going to do about it? As if this was to continue when the Scottish Government gets it handed over (and say in theory they don’t budge either), it’s not going to be a good look as it is with Scotrail as a brand and having Scottish Government in control.

It 'achieves' nothing. It's just that it means the Scottish Government is ultimately spending less money over the new Parliament. In my view they should just be able to borrow the extra money and spend it but good luck on getting agreement there.

Specifically with regards to the strikes there's every possibility it could be resolved in a way that means that some routes have no service on Sundays permanently.

Green transition my arse.

To be fair, government in no part of the UK has begun on the proper work of the transition, in transport or in other sectors. Any claim that they've started is false.

It would appear to me that many of these changes do not encourage rail travel for the vast majority of people.

They definitely don't. But then I don't think that's the main idea.

 

[Horizon22]

There is zero chance these proposals have been made without th full approval of the Scottish Government.

Although technically there isn’t a government right now?

 

[Frankton Junct]

It also includes commitments to:

• Increase investment in active travel and public transport, with the aim of providing a "realistic and affordable" alternative to car use

- An extract from the BBC report on the new deal between the Scottish Greens and the SNP. See SNP-Greens deal pledges indyref2 within five years

How this is consistent with the proposed Scotrail service reductions is to be explained.

 

[Highlandspring]

I agree, it is very puzzling to see on the one hand the Scottish Government pushing rail development and decarbonisation as an integral part of the SNP/Green power share agreement but with the other hand proposing such swingeing cuts to services. I really hope everyone commenting here can find the time to submit a response to the consultation - the more public push back there is to this the harder it will be to just bundle the changes through anyway.

 

[the sniper]

I wouldn't get too excited yet. This was surely worked out before the Greens/SNP deal. Some folks at Scotrail got to put their efficiencies homework out there and the Greens can claim an early victory of their partnership in getting the plan scrapped.

£40m is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Cutting emissions just PR fluff. I wouldn't be surprised if this is actually just Scotrail coming up with a timetable that can be delivered with predicted staff resources.

 

[snookertam]

This is in startling contrast to the new government coalition agreement and any newspaper worth its salt will be making reference to this tomorrow. Transport is very much part of their agreement. Would love to see Lorna Slater or Patrick Harvie in front of a camera to defend this one.

 

[Unstoppable]

May as well add there is no trolley services on the Megabus either! If anything if I was going to do Glasgow or Edinburgh again in the future seems I’ll go Megabus than Scotrail!

Cynical for a minute, even with change of hands next year it seems like as if the Scottish Government isn’t improving Scotrail but it seems they have possibly scored an own goal for the likes of us in the North east not to bother with Scotrail but to get the Megabus instead (surely they should have seen this?), will it make any profit out of these changes or do we predict making more losses? (I’ll expect if it’s losses it will be spun and COVID will still be blamed)

Once the host are back the Golds will have complimentary tea, coffee, juice and biscuits/cakes as per before. Tbh with the amount of times the trains are off and the ticket acceptance taking place on Scottish Citylink/Megabus it has been ScotRail which have opened passengers eyes.

 

[marks87]

Scotrail have now published the "official" timetables and consultation documents.

This suggests that Edinburgh-Aberdeen and Glasgow-Aberdeen will each be 1tph and the published timetable supports that - https://www.scotrail.co.uk/timetable-routes/intercity

Timetable: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/de...ay_22_-_aberdeen_-_central_belt_timetable.pdf

What would have been good to see was a somewhat more integrated approach to the Aberdeen-Dundee-Edinburgh/Glasgow timetable such that Aberdeen-Glasgow/Edinburgh services connected with Dundee-Edinburgh/Glasgow services, with the same in reverse. This would effectively give Aberdeen passengers the same 2-journeys-per-hour to Glasgow/Edinburgh that Dundee benefits from.

 

[MadCommuter]

I'm afraid I am one of those commuters that has abandoned the railway. I'm due back in the office soon but only 1 to 2 days per week. Although double vaccinated, I'll be driving until the infection numbers are way lower than they are at present.

However, it doesn't make sense to cut evening services like they propose. If they have to cut services as revenue has fallen, surely cut it where the demand has been reduced?

I guess they aren't building the best railway Scotland ever had, any more?


Good luck with the consultation responses but don't expect them to make any difference. They should rename it an engagement process.

 

[kez19]

Scotrail have now published the "official" timetables and consultation documents.

This suggests that Edinburgh-Aberdeen and Glasgow-Aberdeen will each be 1tph and the published timetable supports that - https://www.scotrail.co.uk/timetable-routes/intercity

Timetable: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/de...ay_22_-_aberdeen_-_central_belt_timetable.pdf

What would have been good to see was a somewhat more integrated approach to the Aberdeen-Dundee-Edinburgh/Glasgow timetable such that Aberdeen-Glasgow/Edinburgh services connected with Dundee-Edinburgh/Glasgow services, with the same in reverse. This would effectively give Aberdeen passengers the same 2-journeys-per-hour to Glasgow/Edinburgh that Dundee benefits from.

To me the timetable just seems the same - no major changes at Dundee (I'm looking at it from there but frequency looks unchanged?) and even looking at it from Glasgow Queen Street too?

Looking at it from the Dundee end: 1253 is from Aberdeen and the next one 1320 is the "local" to Glasgow - thats roughly as it was previously?

It looks to me if coming to Dundee there is a train roughly every half hour? ie 11.11 and 11.41 then again at midday (the 11 mins past Dundee only Aberdeen 30 mins later?)

Once the host are back the Golds will have complimentary tea, coffee, juice and biscuits/cakes as per before. Tbh with the amount of times the trains are off and the ticket acceptance taking place on Scottish Citylink/Megabus it has been ScotRail which have opened passengers eyes.

Maybe we should suggest Stagecoach take over Scotrail? lol

 

[Deltic1961]

The £330 million or therebouts dualling most of the line between Aberdeen and Inverurie seems such a waste now. All the trains I've been on are almost empty.

I can see why they are cutting back but it does send the wrong message unfortunately.

 

[alangla]

I'm due back in the office soon but only 1 to 2 days per week.

A lot of people are going to be in that boat, so it’s surprising that of the lines where they’ve introduced flexipasses (very welcome btw), the Argyle Line isn’t one of them. You can get a pass from some (but not all) places to Glasgow Central but not to Anderston or Argyle Street despite the fare being the same. On the north Clyde, there’s passes to Charing X and (I think) High Street. This means you’ve got idiotic anomalies like Partick to Charing X, Queen Street and Central all possible on flexipasses but Anderston isn’t! Coupled with the service cuts it’s like they’re actively trying to scare away regular traffic. Also, I don’t think it’s possible to get Flexis for flows that involve changing from High to Low level at either Central or Queen Street. Anyone that’s seen the dash for the lifts from E&G trains knows a lot of people did those moves each day

 

[InOban]

I think that the proposals answer the question on another thread - when will extra stock be ordered for the Barrhead and EK electrification. They won't need to order any.

Another aspect of the reductions is that it will ease the shortage of drivers, They must be looking to end the Sunday overtime premium, which ought to bring an end to the whole dispute.

 

[Tayway]

The new timetable for Edinburgh to Fife and Tayside is incredibly poor:

• The frequency from Kirkcaldy to Edinburgh will be halved, and there will no longer be any semi-fast trains.
• The Edinburgh to Dundee stopping services will take 1hr 30mins, meaning that they will arrive in Dundee just 10 mins before the following Aberdeen train that leaves half an hour later.
• There will no longer be any direct trains between Glenrothes and Kirkcaldy.
• Perth gets well and truly shafted – you will have a choice between an infrequent Inverness train via Stirling or an all-shacks stopper via Dunfermline.
• Carnoustie, Monifieth and Broughty Ferry all lose their through services to Fife and Edinburgh, and aren't even tacked on to the new Glasgow-Dundee semi-fast.
• Connections at Dundee seem to be very hit and miss, especially since the HST services won't return to a proper hourly schedule.

 

[snookertam]

A lot of people are going to be in that boat, so it’s surprising that of the lines where they’ve introduced flexipasses (very welcome btw), the Argyle Line isn’t one of them. You can get a pass from some (but not all) places to Glasgow Central but not to Anderston or Argyle Street despite the fare being the same. On the north Clyde, there’s passes to Charing X and (I think) High Street. This means you’ve got idiotic anomalies like Partick to Charing X, Queen Street and Central all possible on flexipasses but Anderston isn’t! Coupled with the service cuts it’s like they’re actively trying to scare away regular traffic. Also, I don’t think it’s possible to get Flexis for flows that involve changing from High to Low level at either Central or Queen Street. Anyone that’s seen the dash for the lifts from E&G trains knows a lot of people did those moves each day

There seems to be a blind spot at ScotRail with the idea that Anderston, Charing Cross, Argyle Street, High Street and even Haymarket are all City Centre stations.

I think that the proposals answer the question on another thread - when will extra stock be ordered for the Barrhead and EK electrification. They won't need to order any.

Another aspect of the reductions is that it will ease the shortage of drivers, They must be looking to end the Sunday overtime premium, which ought to bring an end to the whole dispute.

I did wonder why ScotRail were quite happy to let the dispute rumble on with no end in sight. Their behaviour (and that of government, Transport Scotland) has been incredibly cynical throughout.

 

[alangla]

There seems to be a blind spot at ScotRail with the idea that Anderston, Charing Cross, Argyle Street, High Street and even Haymarket are all City Centre stations.

It’s not even that they’re city centre (though God knows how much revenue they lose out of High Street…) but that they’re “business” stations, I.e. for Anderston & Charing X, they’re serving big commuter flows that may or may not originate on a direct line to them. Offering “free” low level transfers for high level passengers on flexible seasons might well make the difference between choosing rail & not for some people, especially as there’s still going to be the same number of parking spaces and probably fewer people competing for them each day. There’s plenty of private car parks in that bit between Argyle Street and the Broomielaw, they’ll gladly take anyone ScotRail don’t want to serve.

 

[Blindtraveler]

There are just no words to describe my anger about this. There is literally nothing good here at all all and as others have said it simply discourages rail use and continues to promote the passenger unfriendly attitude we've seen from ScotRail as a public body or company in recent times. I am not staff bashing here except of course those senior staff that thought any of this was even vaguely something that might be a good idea. It's getting harder and harder to love the railway and harder and harder to use it and I shall be doing a lot less of that now assuming each and every one of these cuts happens


I read through all the proposed changes and simply cannot understand some of them in particular, the borders line for example is crazy and reductions of services to so many stations. The only one that I think might be vaguely a good idea is the rerouting of Inverness services via Stirling as changing at Perth is nothing but a pain in the backside




If anyone has spare shares to buy or sell then the bus companies and motor car industry might be a good place

 

[backontrack]

The new timetable for Edinburgh to Fife and Tayside is incredibly poor:

• The frequency from Kirkcaldy to Edinburgh will be halved, and there will no longer be any semi-fast trains.
• The Edinburgh to Dundee stopping services will take 1hr 30mins, meaning that they will arrive in Dundee just 10 mins before the following Aberdeen train that leaves half an hour later.
• There will no longer be any direct trains between Glenrothes and Kirkcaldy.
• Perth gets well and truly shafted – you will have a choice between an infrequent Inverness train via Stirling or an all-shacks stopper via Dunfermline.
• Carnoustie, Monifieth and Broughty Ferry all lose their through services to Fife and Edinburgh, and aren't even tacked on to the new Glasgow-Dundee semi-fast.
• Connections at Dundee seem to be very hit and miss, especially since the HST services won't return to a proper hourly schedule.

No more direct trains from Kirkcaldy to Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath, Perth or Inverness. Just Edinburgh in one direction, and Dundee in the other.

Decentralisation? What's that?

 

[eoff]

Where exactly is the link to this consultation on the ScotRail website?

 

[XAM2175]

I would encourage anybody who isn't already planning to write to their MSP to do so, even if you're not seriously affected by the proposals.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

According to Abellio ScotRail accounts for year ending March 2020 they had operating costs of 980m with 525m of that covered by Scottish govt with farebox and other income was 390m with Albellio taking a 55m loss. With EMA agreement in place there losses were sterilised in the 2021 FY but won't see those results for months.

Bottom line is £30m of savings is scratching the surface and can only come from not filling vacancies and shrinking overtime/rest day working and reduced energy/fuel costs. How much stock they can off lease is impossible to deduce from accounts but with NR's track access income largely fixed with only a small saving from the variable element the level of subsidy is going to remain very large unless passenger demand returns.

Note Green rep jus been on Ch4 news says there agreement with SNP will result in a massive investment in public transport!! No point if your not going to deploy a service level to encourage modal transfer.

Edit: Oh and this from the Scottish Govt press release today

increase investment in active travel and public transport, including a Fair Fares review to provide a realistic and affordable alternative to car use

So is that code for lower fares to increase useage leads to overcrowding leads to people going back to cars if provision doesn't match that vision.

And the joint SNP/Green policy document says

● align transport policy with our climate targets and the goal of reducing car/km by 20% by 2030. Reducing the distance travelled by private car and the
number of vehicles on the roads will improve air quality, the wellbeing of our communities and reduce accidents, and is an important part of our approach to
achieving Scotland’s ambitious greenhouse gas emission reduction targets.
● increase the proportion of Transport Scotland’s budget spent on Active Travel initiatives so that by 2024-25 at least £320m or 10% of the total transport
budget will be allocated to active travel.
● during this parliamentary session, invest over £5 billion in maintaining, improving and decarbonising Scotland’s rail network.
● use the outcomes of the Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR2) to direct future transport infrastructure investment.
● commission a Fair Fares Review to ensure a sustainable and integrated approach to public transport fares. This will look at the range of discounts and
concessionary schemes which are available on all modes including bus, rail and ferry. The review will consider options against a background where the costs of car travel are declining and public transport costs are increasing, exacerbating the impact on those living in poverty.

Again seems at odds with the consultation.

 

[Davester50]

Note Green rep jus been on Ch4 news says there agreement with SNP will result in a massive investment in public transport!! No point if your not going to deploy a service level to encourage modal transfer.

If the recent Sustrans survey that was sent three times(!) to the house, they don't care about Public Transport.
It's all cycling focused. Even walking is lower down the priority list.

 

[kez19]

COVID might get some of the blame but I’m sure Westminster will receive the lion’s share.

That wouldn’t surprise me but isn’t transport devolved to Scotland anyway? If Westminster was to be used as a scapegoat in this I’m sure this would be a situation that would backfire

 

[ScotRail158725]

East Kilbride is hourly in evening, which I cant understand.

Everything is excpet the E&G and Argyle/North Clyde lines which is awful

 

[kez19]

According to Abellio ScotRail accounts for year ending March 2020 they had operating costs of 980m with 525m of that covered by Scottish govt with farebox and other income was 390m with Albellio taking a 55m loss. With EMA agreement in place there losses were sterilised in the 2021 FY but won't see those results for months.

Bottom line is £30m of savings is scratching the surface and can only come from not filling vacancies and shrinking overtime/rest day working and reduced energy/fuel costs. How much stock they can off lease is impossible to deduce from accounts but with NR's track access income largely fixed with only a small saving from the variable element the level of subsidy is going to remain very large unless passenger demand returns.

Note Green rep jus been on Ch4 news says there agreement with SNP will result in a massive investment in public transport!! No point if your not going to deploy a service level to encourage modal transfer.

Edit: Oh and this from the Scottish Govt press release today


So is that code for lower fares to increase useage leads to overcrowding leads to people going back to cars if provision doesn't match that vision.

And the joint SNP/Green policy document says


Again seems at odds with the consultation.

What do they mean (I know this is Scotrail but…) highlighted it below, it maybe nothing as such but with the recent lockdowns over the last 18 months I would question this?
● align transport policy with our climate targets and the goal of reducing car/km by 20% by 2030. Reducing the distance travelled by private car and the
number of vehicles on the roads will improve air quality, the wellbeing of our communities and reduce accidents, and is an important part of our approach to
achieving Scotland’s ambitious greenhouse gas emission reduction targets.

 

[Robertj21a]

To me the timetable just seems the same - no major changes at Dundee (I'm looking at it from there but frequency looks unchanged?) and even looking at it from Glasgow Queen Street too?

Looking at it from the Dundee end: 1253 is from Aberdeen and the next one 1320 is the "local" to Glasgow - thats roughly as it was previously?

It looks to me if coming to Dundee there is a train roughly every half hour? ie 11.11 and 11.41 then again at midday (the 11 mins past Dundee only Aberdeen 30 mins later?)




Maybe we should suggest Stagecoach take over Scotrail? lol

I'm sure that Stagecoach are more than happy to let Abellio suffer !

 

[Scotrail314209]

One thing I’m not a fan of is keeping Ayr 2tph, sure don’t reinstate the 4tph, but 2tph calling at basically all the stations isn’t great at all.

Do they expect people in summer to pack in on a 3 carriage all stops train to Ayr? Having done it when lockdown eased, it was full and standing.