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Scotrail to withdraw paper Flexipass from End of October

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Butts

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No more paper ticket carnets available, will now have to be on a smartcard only.

Perhaps they have rumbled people getting a free return when the barriers are open on departure and the ticket is not marked/checked by the Guard on the outward journey.

Is this the beginning of the end for paper tickets - will it be smartcard only 5 years hence ?
 
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Hadders

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2023-25 is the target date for the end of paper tickets.

Which is rather concerning if it’ll see whole ranges of ticket types removed, e.g. weekend Super Off Peak ticket’s from places like Brookmans Park leaving Contactless as the only option for local journeys.

In other words a potential massive price rise via the back door.
 

Haywain

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Which is rather concerning if it’ll see whole ranges of ticket types removed, e.g. weekend Super Off Peak ticket’s from places like Brookmans Park leaving Contactless as the only option for local journeys.

In other words a potential massive price rise via the back door.
I think that when the withdrawal of paper tickets is referred to it means, specifically, magnetic strip CCST tickets.
 

Failed Unit

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No more paper ticket carnets available, will now have to be on a smartcard only.

Perhaps they have rumbled people getting a free return when the barriers are open on departure and the ticket is not marked/checked by the Guard on the outward journey.

Is this the beginning of the end for paper tickets - will it be smartcard only 5 years hence ?
To be honest I am amazed it has taken so long. I know most stock in Scotland has corridor connections now. But fraud was rife with them as it was so easy.

hopefully GTR will follow suit.

I use them on both operators. I would prefer a smart card to remove the guilty until proven innocent view with RPI on those tickets.

the problem is what do the offices do that but then to give to staff? I often have bought them but given them to others making the same journey (which is acceptable in the T&C).
 

Hadders

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I think that when the withdrawal of paper tickets is referred to it means, specifically, magnetic strip CCST tickets.

I hope so and expect this will be the case for long distance operators where e tickets will simply be issued.

I doubt GTR will issue e tickets in the PAYG area though, I fear paper tickets will be withdrawn altogether for journeys wholly in the PAYG area resulting in huge increases for leisure travellers.
 

Clip

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I hope so and expect this will be the case for long distance operators where e tickets will simply be issued.

I doubt GTR will issue e tickets in the PAYG area though, I fear paper tickets will be withdrawn altogether for journeys wholly in the PAYG area resulting in huge increases for leisure travellers.


I get you worried about this but its a bit of an overreaction as you can still use the Key to purchase these tickets - you are not being forced to use PAYG or Contactless...... Yet.
 

smsm1

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I've heard Greater Anglia are similarly due to phase out the paper flexipass tickets.
 

Hadders

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I get you worried about this but its a bit of an overreaction as you can still use the Key to purchase these tickets - you are not being forced to use PAYG or Contactless...... Yet.

Hardly an over reaction. You can’t buy any walk up tickets on The Key from the GN Route....

Why do you think we should trust the TOCs on this? We know they and the DfT (who are no doubt leading this) have next to no expertise when it comes to rail fares.
 

Journeyman

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No more paper ticket carnets available, will now have to be on a smartcard only.

Perhaps they have rumbled people getting a free return when the barriers are open on departure and the ticket is not marked/checked by the Guard on the outward journey.

Is this the beginning of the end for paper tickets - will it be smartcard only 5 years hence ?

The takeup of smartcards in Scotland has been pretty pathetic. I used one for a season ticket for some time, but hardly anyone else seemed to bother. A couple of years ago, they ran a campaign to dish out a share of a million pounds to everyone with a smart card season valid on certain dates. I thought I might get a few quid out of it - I got £89, which seems to suggest only about 11,000 people in the whole of Scotland had seasons on smartcards at the time!
 

ScotTrains

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I got my first Scotrail smartcard earlier this year when they ran the 'free' weekend promotions. I used it on a number of weekends with a valid 1st class season added.
It did not work once, not onboard, not even at the station barriers at the station it was issued to/from. I used different methods to upload the tickets to the card: online, at booking office etc, but still didn't work. The ticket machine could read it but nothing else could. I hated it! I've used physical paper tickets ever since and will do as long as I can.
 

Journeyman

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I got my first Scotrail smartcard earlier this year when they ran the 'free' weekend promotions. I used it on a number of weekends with a valid 1st class season added.
It did not work once, not onboard, not even at the station barriers at the station it was issued to/from. I used different methods to upload the tickets to the card: online, at booking office etc, but still didn't work. The ticket machine could read it but nothing else could. I hated it! I've used physical paper tickets ever since and will do as long as I can.

Agreed - the only times I've ever tried loading tickets on to it, it's been quite farcical, and staff usually just gave me the benefit of the doubt on whether there was actually a ticket on it. I don't commute by train now, but every time I travel for leisure these days, I just buy paper tickets because it's easier and quicker. The only use I have for my ScotRail smartcard is paying for travel on the Glasgow Subway.
 

Clip

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Hardly an over reaction. You can’t buy any walk up tickets on The Key from the GN Route....

Why do you think we should trust the TOCs on this? We know they and the DfT (who are no doubt leading this) have next to no expertise when it comes to rail fares.

Well it is considering they are still saying that you will be able to purchase paper version of the ticket you want from a TVM and im sure in time they will make such a thing available on the smartcard.

At the end of the day the life of orange bits of card is coming to an end and people really need to start getting used to it
 

Hadders

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Well it is considering they are still saying that you will be able to purchase paper version of the ticket you want from a TVM and im sure in time they will make such a thing available on the smartcard.

At the end of the day the life of orange bits of card is coming to an end and people really need to start getting used to it

The aspiration of the rail industry is to remove all paper tickets within five years. I don’t have a problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is a potential huge increase in ticket prices, particularly for leisure travel at weekends. In some cases passengers might have to pay double what they pay today.

Are you happy with that?
 

Butts

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I have a Club 50 Smartcard which works most of the time with regard to loading tickets and getting in and out of Barriers. A lot of the time Guards don't even bother checking whether it is loaded with a valid ticket when you present it.

This Morning I caught the 0623 from Haymarket to Falkirk Grahamston. The barriers at Haymarket were open.

On boarding the service I dated my flexipass ticket with todays date. The guard looked at it but did not mark it.

Should I throw it in the bin or use it for my return trip tonight ?
 

Butts

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Wait till you hear their latest wheeze on the new smartcard only flexticket......

You have to "clock in" and "clock out" at the barriers or smart ticket machines in non barriered stations.

If you don't swipe the card at the start the Guard will charge you the normal single fare for your journey rather than deducting one of your flexipass virtual tickets on the card.

How are you supposed to do this at Haymarket early in the morning when the barriers are open and their is no smart ticket reader ?
 

Joe Paxton

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Wait till you hear their latest wheeze on the new smartcard only flexticket......
...

No wheeze whatsoever. Requiring the passenger to 'clock in'/out' (i.e. validate) before/after travel means the hypothetical wheeze of Flexiticket holders hoping they'd avoid a ticket check from the guard and so getting a free journey is itself avoided.

Barriers/ gates at a station being open but nonetheless requiring a smartcard tap-in / tap-out is nothing new - it's been this way with Oyster pay-as-you-go in London from the beginning.
 

KatieLouLou

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Readers on barriers still work when they're open.

Except if they take lessons from Kings Cross where the staff on the LNER barrier line seem to prefer leaving them open with a red cross in both directions, which disables the readers, so you can't actually tap in or out...
 

Butts

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When I've bought a Club 50 Ticket online in the past tapping the open barrier with the smartcard has resulted in an error message whereas if it is closed it loads the ticket and comes up with start of journey.
 

sdrennan

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I noticed that when buying a single journey ticket that it states it will take 4 hours before it will be available. Is this correct. I only travel occasionally by train and wanted to buy on way to station. No good if it takes 4 hours to appear....
 

Butts

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I noticed that when buying a single journey ticket that it states it will take 4 hours before it will be available. Is this correct. I only travel occasionally by train and wanted to buy on way to station. No good if it takes 4 hours to appear....

It's only four hours if you buy online to go onto a smartcard - why does it take so long as normal tickets only take 15 mins ?

Purchasing from a TVM or Ticket Office put's them straight onto the smartcard instantly.
 

island

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At the end of the day the life of orange bits of card is coming to an end and people really need to start getting used to it
No, the rail industry needs to start getting used to the issues first. As long as there are situations where passengers are being disadvantaged by TOCs saying they cannot accept others’ smartcards, nonsensical situations about some (but not all) mobile tickets needing to be “activated”, and interoperability problems requiring passengers to carry a wallet full of ITSO cards with different logos on, the option of a simple, uncomplicated, and universally accepted paper ticket must remain.
 

Journeyman

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No, the rail industry needs to start getting used to the issues first. As long as there are situations where passengers are being disadvantaged by TOCs saying they cannot accept others’ smartcards, nonsensical situations about some (but not all) mobile tickets needing to be “activated”, and interoperability problems requiring passengers to carry a wallet full of ITSO cards with different logos on, the option of a simple, uncomplicated, and universally accepted paper ticket must remain.

Agreed, the paper ticket isn't going anywhere just yet, although magnetic stripe tickets are going to disappear in favour of barcoded ones.

An industry insider told me recently that the biggest problem with smartcards is that they've come too late for the railway - technology has moved on to the point where now, you should really be looking at phone-based systems instead.
 

Haywain

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An industry insider told me recently that the biggest problem with smartcards is that they've come too late for the railway - technology has moved on to the point where now, you should really be looking at phone-based systems instead.
I think the industry knew that the technology had moved on, but the previous Secretary of State (not noted for his successes) insisted that smart cards should be available nationally and put money into facilitating this. The new Secretary of State seems to have decided that everyone should now be using barcodes, although it's only Transport for London he needs to convince. And this is just as we're getting smartcards rolled out!
 

Journeyman

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I think the industry knew that the technology had moved on, but the previous Secretary of State (not noted for his successes) insisted that smart cards should be available nationally and put money into facilitating this. The new Secretary of State seems to have decided that everyone should now be using barcodes, although it's only Transport for London he needs to convince. And this is just as we're getting smartcards rolled out!

Yeah, the biggest problem is that TfL won't accept barcoded tickets for cross-London travel, probably because installing optical readers on their gatelines would cost a fortune. Someone needs to fork out the cash for that, but I can't see anyone lining up to open their wallets.
 

Haywain

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Yeah, the biggest problem is that TfL won't accept barcoded tickets for cross-London travel, probably because installing optical readers on their gatelines would cost a fortune. Someone needs to fork out the cash for that, but I can't see anyone lining up to open their wallets.
Well, £80 million for smartcards was found by Grayling, so maybe Shapps can find a similar amount for the London barcode readers. TfL will install them if someone else pays!
 

plugwash

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Agreed, the paper ticket isn't going anywhere just yet, although magnetic stripe tickets are going to disappear in favour of barcoded ones.
My understanding is that the big blocker for this is TFL, has there been any change on that front?

An industry insider told me recently that the biggest problem with smartcards is that they've come too late for the railway - technology has moved on to the point where now, you should really be looking at phone-based systems instead.
Maybe i'm old fassioned, but I don't think expecting every customer to have a charged phone at all times is in any way reasonable. Especially when many trains and stations still lack charging facilities (though this is improving).
 

Haywain

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Maybe i'm old fassioned, but I don't think expecting every customer to have a charged phone at all times is in any way reasonable. Especially when many trains and stations still lack charging facilities (though this is improving).
For phone based, read barcode tickets.
 
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