Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[Class 170101]

I wouldn't recommend you say that to the communities north of Perth who want to see more services between the Central Belt and Inverness (upto hourly) and between Inverness and Aberdeen (again upto hourly).

Communities on the Far North Line would like to see their service frequencies improved also with extra services - all perhaps a use for these 'spare DMUs' referred to.

 

[route:oxford]

Scotrail needs to be held to account for its near consistent underusage of its rolling stock. Scotrail could afford to lose at least five DMUs just as a starting point.

Held to account by whom?

Transport Scotland or the Scottish Government?

I can't see either being overly keen on 5 DMUs being transferred elsewhere. Well, not without a considerable financial settlement.

 

[LBSCR Times]

If the lease expires and the ROSCO can get more money from leasing it to GTR, aided by financial assistance from the DfT, then Transport for Scotland will have to find more money too, so they can stay with Scotrail, otherwise they will be heading south.
The local MP for Tonbridge has already been told by the DfT that there will be extra units by next July, and not the end of December 2016!

 

[route:oxford]

If the lease expires and the ROSCO can get more money from leasing it to GTR, aided by financial assistance from the DfT, then Transport for Scotland will have to find more money too, so they can stay with Scotrail, otherwise they will be heading south.
The local MP for Tonbridge has already been told by the DfT that there will be extra units by next July, and not the end of December 2016!

You're forgetting that if "England" is allocated more money for rolling stock, the practical consequence is that the block grant for Scotland increases by an equivalent value.

As to the MP. Ask him for a copy of the memo...

 

[deltic08]

Oh there is. When the Class 380s arrived, Scotrail retained a lot of the EMUs the Class 380s were meant to be replacing. This is why some Motherwell services and the Whifflet line can be run with EMUs now even though Scotrail has not received any additional stock in the least year. When other parts of its country are in great need of DMUs Scotrail needs to be held to account for its near consistent underusage of its rolling stock. Scotrail could afford to lose at least five DMUs just as a starting point.

I can't add to that.

 

[Chrisgr31]

You're forgetting that if "England" is allocated more money for rolling stock, the practical consequence is that the block grant for Scotland increases by an equivalent value.

As to the MP. Ask him for a copy of the memo...

I have been assured by the reporter who wrote the article that she has seen the letter from the Dept of Transport to the MP that states contracts have been signed and the units come in to operation in July 2015. However it doesnt say where they are coming from.

 

[route:oxford]

I have been assured by the reporter who wrote the article that she has seen the letter from the Dept of Transport to the MP that states contracts have been signed and the units come in to operation in July 2015. However it doesnt say where they are coming from.

Ok...

Golden rule is to trust a reporter marginally less than you'd trust an MP.

*Seeing* a letter isn't the same as *reading* a letter.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Ok...

Golden rule is to trust a reporter marginally less than you'd trust an MP.

*Seeing* a letter isn't the same as *reading* a letter.

LOL Thats why I have written to my MP asking him to investigate! His immediate response was to be sceptical but I am sure he'll get back to me shortly.

 

[Rick1984]

If Scotrail have such a surplus of DMU's why do you never see 6 car trains on
Kilmarnock-Glasgow services? a peak 4-car can still be pretty rammed.

 

[physics34]

Ok...

Golden rule is to trust a reporter marginally less than you'd trust an MP.

*Seeing* a letter isn't the same as *reading* a letter.

well Southern have confirmed it thank goodness.

 

[pemma]

If Scotrail have such a surplus of DMU's why do you never see 6 car trains on
Kilmarnock-Glasgow services? a peak 4-car can still be pretty rammed.

Probably because funding is based on 4 car usage and neither First or Transport Scotland want to fund longer trains if everyone can fit on the 4 car train.

Does the infrastructure allow 6 car usage?

And what's your definition of rammed, remembering that operators aren't expected to provide 1 seat per passenger at peak times on stopping services?

 

[Minstral25]

well Southern have confirmed it thank goodness.

Confirmed where?

 

[grid56126]

Confirmed in a staff brief last Thursday. 4 x 3 car 170s from Scotrail.

 

[Class 170101]

Any public press releases to that effect?

 

[thealexweb]

Held to account by whom?

Transport Scotland or the Scottish Government?

I can't see either being overly keen on 5 DMUs being transferred elsewhere. Well, not without a considerable financial settlement.

The UK Government. Scotrail's massive subsidy is causing distortion in a supposedly free market. Because of this massive subsidy that the Scottish Government is permitted to give away, it means TOCs in England will be constantly short of rolling stock because they will never be able to match what Scotrail can offer the leasing companies.

 

[clc]

The UK Government. Scotrail's massive subsidy is causing distortion in a supposedly free market. Because of this massive subsidy that the Scottish Government is permitted to give away, it means TOCs in England will be constantly short of rolling stock because they will never be able to match what Scotrail can offer the leasing companies.

Is Scotrail really paying more to leasing companies than the other TOCs?

 

[route:oxford]

The UK Government. Scotrail's massive subsidy is causing distortion in a supposedly free market. Because of this massive subsidy that the Scottish Government is permitted to give away, it means TOCs in England will be constantly short of rolling stock because they will never be able to match what Scotrail can offer the leasing companies.

It's not the duty of the Westminster government to micromanage transport policy in Scotland.

If the Scottish Goverment, for example, wants to subsidise a near disused airport in The future First Minister's mother's constituency area to the tune of £1M a month - then they can. Likewise with having "looser" diagramming of units.

 

[thealexweb]

It's not the duty of the Westminster government to micromanage transport policy in Scotland.

If the Scottish Goverment, for example, wants to subsidise a near disused airport in The future First Minister's mother's constituency area to the tune of £1M a month - then they can. Likewise with having "looser" diagramming of units.

Its the duty of the UK Government to look after all the affairs for England and if Scotland is actively undermining England it is within the UK Parliament's authority to evolve powers back to Westminster. Under current laws the Scottish Government has no veto over this.

 

[route:oxford]

Its the duty of the UK Government to look after all the affairs for England and if Scotland is actively undermining England it is within the UK Parliament's authority to evolve powers back to Westminster. Under current laws the Scottish Government has no veto over this.

"Undermining England" indeed, this country is nowhere near as pathetic as you make it sound.

I really can't see powers being revoked by Westminster simply because a few enthusiasts have thrown a tantrum about the diagramming of DMUs.

 

[Class83]

Is Scotrail really paying more to leasing companies than the other TOCs?

Presumably they're willing to pay the market rate for the units they have, from a combination of fares and subsidy. Like all TOCs, the willingness of the Scottish Exec to pay more subsidy than the DfT is the difference.

 

[pemma]

Tony Miles has posted that Govia approached the ROSCO directly and were offered the Scotrail 170s as they are off-lease from next Spring. With the new franchise not yet being awarded the Scotrail bidders couldn't do anything about it. So it sounds like Scotrail are just as vulnerable to having their trains poached as TPE.

 

[clc]

It's not the duty of the Westminster government to micromanage transport policy in Scotland.

If the Scottish Goverment, for example, wants to subsidise a near disused airport in The future First Minister's mother's constituency area to the tune of £1M a month - then they can. Likewise with having "looser" diagramming of units.

That's the first time I've heard anyone imply that the Scottish Government is bailing out Prestwick Airport because Sturgeon's mother lives in Ayrshire.

 

[deltic08]

Confirmed in a staff brief last Thursday. 4 x 3 car 170s from Scotrail.

Well, that kills any 156s going to Northern soon then. The South comes first again.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Well, that kills any 156s going to Northern soon then. The South comes first again.

Well apparently the line they are going to is profitable so at least its not a case of this being subsidised by the taxpayer.

 

[causton]

Well, that kills any 156s going to Northern soon then. The South comes first again.

He who asks, gets. Govia asked, they got!

 

[physics34]

Any public press releases to that effect?

eventually from the DfT i guess. Then again we are still awaiting an 'official' press release about the bombardier order for gatwick express 387s that was agreed nearly 10 days ago!
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Confirmed where?

i can't post the southern staff brief on here unfortunately, for obvious reasons.

 

[3141]

Tony Miles has posted that Govia approached the ROSCO directly and were offered the Scotrail 170s as they are off-lease from next Spring. With the new franchise not yet being awarded the Scotrail bidders couldn't do anything about it. So it sounds like Scotrail are just as vulnerable to having their trains poached as TPE.

Is it “poaching”? The trains are going to come off lease. Any rail operator that wants more trains is free to approach the ROSCO and offer to take them on.

But it does raise some interesting problems for the DfT. In a different situation, a new franchisee could find that some of the stock it was expecting to use is moving somewhere else and it won’t be able to provide all the services that were in its bid. It’s the overall stock shortage, especially DMUs, being made very obvious in another way besides overcrowding in the trains themselves.
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Well, that kills any 156s going to Northern soon then. The South comes first again.

Almost nothing to do with the south coming first, just that Govia knew the trains were going to come off lease and offered to take them.

Alternatively, since Go Ahead own 65% of Southern and their HQ is in the north east, a northern company showed initiative and got the trains it wanted.

 

[Class83]

How do any bidders specify services when they don't know what stock will be available and at what price? Presumably Abellio spoke to Hitachi about the new electrics and whoever owns the FGW HSTs. Did they speak to the Turbostar RoSCo and have planned this, perhaps poaching 158s from somewhere else for the Borders or not? Is there a list of when stock goes off lease, or is it generally at the end of franchises?

 

[WatcherZero]

New stock tends to go off lease after 15 years or so usually in the middle of a following franchise, old stock tends to be leased to coincide with the end date of a franchise.

 

[Olaf]

Its the duty of the UK Government to look after all the affairs for England and if Scotland is actively undermining England it is within the UK Parliament's authority to evolve powers back to Westminster. Under current laws the Scottish Government has no veto over this.

Rail services in Scotland are heavily subsidise with the authorisation coming from Westminster. That is the way it is while Scotland remains part of the Union unfortunately.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But it does raise some interesting problems for the DfT. In a different situation, a new franchisee could find that some of the stock it was expecting to use is moving somewhere else and it won’t be able to provide all the services that were in its bid. It’s the overall stock shortage, especially DMUs, being made very obvious in another way besides overcrowding in the trains themselves.

I think, but I am not sure, that all new franchise offering are based on retention of the existing fleet, except were specific cases arise. I do not think this is new territory.