Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[pemma]

Is it “poaching”? The trains are going to come off lease. Any rail operator that wants more trains is free to approach the ROSCO and offer to take them on.

Problem is most franchises can't because they are either due to expire very soon or they've signed a short term Direct Award, which gives a few franchises an unfair advantage.

 

[paul1609]

You're forgetting that if "England" is allocated more money for rolling stock, the practical consequence is that the block grant for Scotland increases by an equivalent value.

As to the MP. Ask him for a copy of the memo...

Doubt that this applies in this case presumably the premium paid by Southern to DFT would be slightly reduced?

 

[ScotGG]

Presumably they're willing to pay the market rate for the units they have, from a combination of fares and subsidy. Like all TOCs, the willingness of the Scottish Exec to pay more subsidy than the DfT is the difference.

Indeed. People complaining in England should start campaigning for more local power from the DfT and Westminster/Whitehall. It is there that they deem transport such a low priority so regions fight it out for the leftovers in many instances.

The Scots have been smart - stand up to Westminster to get more powers and money, and then use them powers to improve transport and quality of life. Regions of England will not enjoy that unless they start doing the same. Waiting for Westminster to give over power is a mugs game. Devolution campaigns are a long and torturous process though so no instant improvements.

 

[fgwrich]

So, I wonder if the 4 170s set to move down from ScotRail to Southern will be the four ex Hull Trains 170 393–396, leaving ScotRail with just the more standard 170/4s to deal with.

 

[physics34]

So, I wonder if the 4 170s set to move down from ScotRail to Southern will be the four ex Hull Trains 170 393–396, leaving ScotRail with just the more standard 170/4s to deal with.

mentioned earlier in this thread, we believe it is the ex-hull ones,yes

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In Rail 760 it specifically says they'll be 170/4s; apparently nine are coming off lease but five will immediately return to Scotland.

So.... does anyone know which nine are due off lease at the relevant time?

 

[158722]

In Rail 760 it specifically says they'll be 170/4s; apparently nine are coming off lease but five will immediately return to Scotland.

So.... does anyone know which nine are due off lease at the relevant time?

9 would suggest the only examples not leased from Porterbrook, namely Eversholt owned 170416-424.

 

[pemma]

In Rail 760 it specifically says they'll be 170/4s; apparently nine are coming off lease but five will immediately return to Scotland.

So.... does anyone know which nine are due off lease at the relevant time?

Scotrail have 59 x 170s, with 50 x 170s being leased from Porterbrook, so the 9 are presumably the ones not leased from Porterbrook.

 

[158722]

Scotrail have 59 x 170s, with 50 x 170s being leased from Porterbrook, so the 9 are presumably the ones not leased from Porterbrook.

Great minds think alike...!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All Scotrail stock except the 380s was due to come off lease in March 2015.
Abellio will now be confirming new leases for what it needs, approved by Transport Scotland as part of the new contract.
I don't think Westminster can change any of that, as the funds have already been voted under the devolved settlement.
Scotland won't be keeping stock just to spite England/Wales - it has to be paid for.

 

[TheBigD]

9 would suggest the only examples not leased from Porterbrook, namely Eversholt owned 170416-424.

So are the other 5 x 3 car 170's off to TPE to replace the 9 x 2car 170's that are going from TPE to Chiltern???

 

[158722]

So are the other 5 x 3 car 170's off to TPE to replace the 9 x 2car 170's that are going from TPE to Chiltern???

Peter's post above seems fairly clear in saying the five are to return to Scotland.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Peter's post above seems fairly clear in saying the five are to return to Scotland.

Strictly speaking, they won't physically leave Scotland- it'll just be a paperwork exercise.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

9 would suggest the only examples not leased from Porterbrook, namely Eversholt owned 170416-424.

Rats... of the four 170/4s I haven't photographed, three are from that batch! Typical... :roll:

*hurriedly checks calendar for opportunities to nip up to Edinburgh on the Sleeper before those three end up getting renumbered*

 

[pemma]

So are the other 5 x 3 car 170's off to TPE to replace the 9 x 2car 170's that are going from TPE to Chiltern???

It would have been sensible for 6 of the Eversholt 3 car 170s to go to TPE - given the 185s are leased from Eversholt and TPE have 18 class 170 carriages currently but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

 

[Stats]

The additional 12 coaches now confirmed by GTR.

http://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/news/county-news/longer-trains-for-uckfield-rail-line-1-6390764

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR,) which takes over the franchise next summer, reveals plans to give passengers vital extra capacity on the Uckfield to London Bridge line by deploying 12 additional carriages of Class 170 diesel trains.

Charles Horton, Chief Executive Officer for GTR said: “The Uckfield line has seen phenomenal growth in the past decade as a result of the introduction of modern trains and improved services. GTR is really pleased to announce this deal to bring in additional carriages, which, once overhauled, will begin to give people along this route the service and the extra capacity they have been calling for.”

 

[Class 170101]

Poor picture choice as usual for the papers.

 

[fgwrich]

Poor picture choice as usual for the papers.

At least it's a Southern train in Southern's patch though!

 

[158722]

The additional 12 coaches now confirmed by GTR.

http://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/news/county-news/longer-trains-for-uckfield-rail-line-1-6390764

Fairly obvious lack of any dates in that piece or any other piece on the subject. Looking at 2016 or 2017 for ScotRail to free up any 170s once the E&G wired, then they need an overhaul... 2017 at best, especially if ScotRail do give up the rumoured 8 158s to TPE.

 

[physics34]

Fairly obvious lack of any dates in that piece or any other piece on the subject. Looking at 2016 or 2017 for ScotRail to free up any 170s once the E&G wired, then they need an overhaul... 2017 at best, especially if ScotRail do give up the rumoured 8 158s to TPE.

Their lease is up in Spring 2015. In service with southern as soon as July 2015. Rumours that 1 unit is coming to selhurst in December to assess the mods that are required.

 

[158722]

Their lease is up in Spring 2015. In service with southern as soon as July 2015. Rumours that 1 unit is coming to selhurst in December to assess the mods that are required.

July 2015 been confirmed officially anywhere?

 

[LBSCR Times]

July 2015 been confirmed officially anywhere?

Southern, in a staff briefing (and the same in the GTR staff briefing too).

 

[158722]

Southern, in a staff briefing (and the same in the GTR staff briefing too).

In which case, I can't see ScotRail giving up 8 158s to TPE as well. They have some spare capacity, as discussed on other threads resulting from Cumbernauld/Whifflet electrification, but not enough to release 12 units. 4x 170s for Southern OR 8x 158s for TPE, not both, surely...

 

[hwl]

July 2015 been confirmed officially anywhere?

From the Southern October 2014 Stakeholder newsletter (released end of last week)

http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/our-stakeholders/stakeholder-news/

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) deal boosts capacity on crowded Sussex line GTR has revealed plans to give passengers vital extra capacity on the Uckfield to London Bridge line by deploying 12 additional carriages of Class 170 diesel trains. The non-electrified Uckfield line is operated by Southern which will become part of the GTR franchise in July 2015. With these extra trains it will be possible to lengthen more services to their current maximum length of eight carriages once the new trains have been brought in and overhauled.
GTR is working with Network Rail to ensure that platforms are extended at the earliest opportunity at Uckfield, Buxted, Crowborough, Eridge, Ashurst, Cowden, Hever and Edenbridge Town so that services can then be lengthened still further, to 10 carriages.
Charles Horton, Chief Executive Officer for GTR said: “The Uckfield line has seen phenomenal growth in the past decade as a result of the introduction of modern trains and improved services. GTR is really pleased to announce this deal to bring in additional carriages, which, once overhauled, will begin to give people along this route the extra capacity they have been calling for.”
GTR will take delivery of the trains in spring 2015. Network Rail’s strategic business plan shows completion of the longer platforms by December 2016 but is working with GTR to bring this forward. Until then, eight carriage trains will continue to use selective door opening technology to serve stations with shorter platforms. 10-carriage trains cannot stop at these stations because, in certain formations, there would be no access from the rear train unit to the platform.

 

[bramling]

From the Southern October 2014 Stakeholder newsletter (released end of last week)

http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/our-stakeholders/stakeholder-news/

Regarding the bit about certain trains not being able to serve certain stations if it means a no part of a unit can access that platform -- I really don't see why this is such a major issue. Uckfield is very much a 'regulars' line, more so than many other lines I don't think this would in practice be a major issue, certainly not after a short bedding-in period.

 

[Class377/5]

Regarding the bit about certain trains not being able to serve certain stations if it means a no part of a unit can access that platform -- I really don't see why this is such a major issue. Uckfield is very much a 'regulars' line, more so than many other lines I don't think this would in practice be a major issue, certainly not after a short bedding-in period.

Because you can't do that. The 10 cars may a whole unit off the platforms increasing chance of a passcom being pulled. The safety case won't allow or non gangwayed stock to operate this way. You cannot assume everyone will know.

 

[TheJRB]

Because you can't do that. The 10 cars may a whole unit off the platforms increasing chance of a passcom being pulled. The safety case won't allow or non gangwayed stock to operate this way. You cannot assume everyone will know.

There have been a few occasions when there have been 2 x 2 cars on the Marshlink. The rear unit would be completely off the platform at a few stations (I think Appledore, Winchelsea, Doleham and Three Oaks), yet that was permitted.

 

[Class377/5]

There have been a few occasions when there have been 2 x 2 cars on the Marshlink. The rear unit would be completely off the platform at a few stations (I think Appledore, Winchelsea, Doleham and Three Oaks), yet that was permitted.

Safety cases have to follow standards set at the time of creation. As such things aren't always allowed to be transferred across, even when logical.

 

[TheJRB]

Safety cases have to follow standards set at the time of creation. As such things aren't always allowed to be transferred across, even when logical.

Of course! I take it the same thing wouldn't be allowed again then. I think it has been a while since there have been 2 x 171/7s on the Marshlink as all the recent times there have been four cars, it's been the single 171/8.

I know these Scotrail 170s are transferring for the Uckfield line but I do still hope something can be done in turn for the Marshlink on weekends which is when it really gets busy down here.

 

[Class377/5]

Of course! I take it the same thing wouldn't be allowed again then. I think it has been a while since there have been 2 x 171/7s on the Marshlink as all the recent times there have been four cars, it's been the single 171/8.

I know these Scotrail 170s are transferring for the Uckfield line but I do still hope something can be done in turn for the Marshlink on weekends which is when it really gets busy down here.

Sadly it seems theses units won't result in better Marshlink capacity I'm told. Its mental how busy it is!