Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[Techniquest]

No doubt it'll happen to TPX's 170s when they head south too...

Guaranteed to happen I believe its already been said they will become 168/3s.

Cheers for the confirmation there, I won't be rushing to get the 170/3s then!

Hopefully the ScotRail 170s heading south won't need much doing as the 170s I did when I went up there a few months ago were in very good condition. Better than the LM ones that's for sure!

 

[Class83]

There's 21 170's being kept until 2025.

27 HST sets introduced from Summer 2018 with all in by Dec 2018. 2 sets increased to 6 cars in 2022.

Presumably this means that FGW need to start releasing them around the start of 2018 for the refurbishment. Given the situation with 170s going south, presumably Abelio's signed contract with the ROSCO overrides any unhappiness amongst Bristol/Swindon/Reading commuters if there are delays with wiring and IEPs.

 

[edwin_m]

The other HST option might be the EMT fleet, which are due to be released in 2019 though this is of course also dependent on progress with electrification. They do have non-standard engines though.

 

[overthewater]

Will the 21 170's mostly be used on the Fife Circle services?

Most likley yes, along with Edinburgh - Perth or Dundee shorts, and of course Alloa - Glasgow.

Of course the reduction wont be until 2019, but how many 158 are being taken out of service with Scotrail?

 

[alexf380]

As far as I'm aware, it's the Haymarket 8 that came from Northern Rail/ SWT in 2007. The numbers add up anyway.

 

[edwin_m]

Most likley yes, along with Edinburgh - Perth or Dundee shorts, and of course Alloa - Glasgow.

Isn't Alloa down for electrification?

 

[David Goddard]

Given Im all for keeping similar fleets together, I would advocate sending the nine TPX Cl170s down to Southern, but that's just me

 

[jimm]

Given Im all for keeping similar fleets together, I would advocate sending the nine TPX Cl170s down to Southern, but that's just me

What do you mean by similar? Classes 168, 170 and 171 are the same Turbostar train under the paint and vinyls, just with different couplers fitted to match local requirements, so 168s and 170s can couple to 15x and 16x stock. The 171s are fitted with Dellners, so can couple to Southern's emus in an emergency.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The other HST option might be the EMT fleet, which are due to be released in 2019 though this is of course also dependent on progress with electrification. They do have non-standard engines though.

And those engines are why Abellio don't want EMT sets, which are hardly likely to be released ahead of anything from FGW, even with delays to GW wiring work.

 

[physics34]

The 171s are fitted with Dellners, so can couple to Southern's emus in an emergency.

And this has been done a few times too to rescue 377s.

Our class 73 loco can rescue 455s and 442s.

 

[fishquinn]

Cheers for the confirmation there, I won't be rushing to get the 170/3s then!

Why not? Get them before they head to the chilterns while you are in Mancc next.

 

[overthewater]

Isn't Alloa down for electrification?

I believe that when I see it, its already running.

 

[Techniquest]

Why not? Get them before they head to the chilterns while you are in Mancc next.

No point doing them, then going after them again with their new numbers! Already done that with 170399, which was renumbered when it went to TPX to 170309.

Besides, I may not be in Manchester again for quite a while yet. That'll depend on the results of the latest round of TPP, which is still in full swing and won't be concluded until tomorrow. Stay tuned to the trip reports thread and Twitter for the news...

 

[fishquinn]

No point doing them, then going after them again with their new numbers! Already done that with 170399, which was renumbered when it went to TPX to 170309.

Besides, I may not be in Manchester again for quite a while yet. That'll depend on the results of the latest round of TPP, which is still in full swing and won't be concluded until tomorrow. Stay tuned to the trip reports thread and Twitter for the news...

Oh, I forgot that some people do the units when they have there numbers changed! Not sure when I will be up north next, but I am going to avoid the 170s, simply because they will be down my way soon!

 

[Altnabreac]

I believe that when I see it, its already running.

It's confirmed for completion December 2018.

Most of the structures work is already complete or underway. The wiring is going to follow straight on from Edinburgh - Glasgow.

See this for Carmuirs tunnel for example:
http://www.egip.info/news/2014/10/canal-closes-for-bridge-demolition

 

[170401]

Most likley yes, along with Edinburgh - Perth or Dundee shorts, and of course Alloa - Glasgow.

Alloa - Glasgow and Edinburgh will be electrified and operated by 3 car Hitatchi AT200 sets from the end of 2018.

 

[daniel3982]

What do you mean by similar? Classes 168, 170 and 171 are the same Turbostar train under the paint and vinyls, just with different couplers fitted to match local requirements, so 168s and 170s can couple to 15x and 16x stock. The 171s are fitted with Dellners, so can couple to Southern's emus in an emergency.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And those engines are why Abellio don't want EMT sets, which are hardly likely to be released ahead of anything from FGW, even with delays to GW wiring work.

What will replace them though?

I always wondered why EMT didn't order enough Meridians to completely replace their fleet of HSTs.

 

[edwin_m]

What will replace them though?

I always wondered why EMT didn't order enough Meridians to completely replace their fleet of HSTs.

Assuming "them" is the EMT HST sets, they are planned to be replaced by electric trains of unknown type, when electrification reaches Derby and Nottingham in 2019.

Yet another 2020-related bear trap awaits, as it isn't planned to modify these for accessibility compliance so there is no obvious solution to continued operation if electrification slips back.

The HSTs are perfectly good on services with fewer stops, but MML (as it then was) needed extra intercity-types stock to expand their services and replace the 170s which were too short and too slow for their semi-fasts. A Voyager derivative was the only suitable design available at the time.

 

[Class 170101]

EMT would just have to follow Chiltern and Scotrails lead as regards HST DDA compliance from 2020.

 

[daniel3982]

Are there any performance differentials between EMT's HST's and Meridians? Whenever I travel Sheffield - London there seems to be a mix of units operating. I would've thought HST's would be reserved for Sheffield and Nottingham fasts.

 

[edwin_m]

Are there any performance differentials between EMT's HST's and Meridians? Whenever I travel Sheffield - London there seems to be a mix of units operating. I would've thought HST's would be reserved for Sheffield and Nottingham fasts.

During the daytime HSTs are reserved for Nottingham fasts but Sheffield fasts are 7-car Meridians. Some extra HSTs operate in the peak including all to and from Leeds, as the trains are based there. Meridians have a better acceleration so are used on most of the stopping services.

 

[Wolfie]

What will replace them though?

I always wondered why EMT didn't order enough Meridians to completely replace their fleet of HSTs.

Of course, EMT didn't actually order any Meridios... Midland Mainline, a predecessor, did and some others ended going EMT's way from Hull Trains with a degree of reforming of formations following....

 

[D6975]

There's 21 170's being kept until 2025.

27 HST sets introduced from Summer 2018 with all in by Dec 2018. 2 sets increased to 6 cars in 2022.

That's the theory, but in practice it just ain't going to happen.
With the delays to the GWML electrification, the full complement of HSTs won't be released-refurbished-available by that date.

 

[HSTEd]

If they send all the first arriving IEPs to ICEC then they can start releasing HSTs early.

 

[SkinnyDave]

If they send all the first arriving IEPs to ICEC then they can start releasing HSTs early.

In all honesty I can see something like this happening, ECML already has the infrastucture, Virgin would not say no to new trains earlier either..
This is all going to hinge on Network Rail

 

[JamesRowden]

If they send all the first arriving IEPs to ICEC then they can start releasing HSTs early.

The Bi-Mode IEPs could surely run on the GWML and displace HSTs before electrification is complete.

 

[D365]

The Bi-Mode IEPs could surely run on the GWML and displace HSTs before electrification is complete.

Bearing in mind that GW's 36 bi-mode IEPs will all be 5-car units and that OHLE renewals will have to take place on the existing lines out of Paddington (and St. Pancras) as it's been reported that they are not suitable for the desired high-speed operation. Depends what they have energised as IEP comes into service.

 

[IanXC]

Bearing in mind that GW's 36 bi-mode IEPs will all be 5-car units and that OHLE renewals will have to take place on the existing lines out of Paddington (and St. Pancras) as it's been reported that they are not suitable for the desired high-speed operation. Depends what they have energised as IEP comes into service.

Even if the wires aren't ready they can be used in diesel mode surely?

 

[Rich McLean]

Current plan being talked about is FGW/dft to place an add on order (via a ROSCO this time) for 19 9-Car Bi-Modes for WoE services. These would be built at the time when the 801s were supposed to be built, and operate the Bristols/Swansea's. The Electric IEP sets will be built after the East Coast Order and by that time, Electrification will(should?) be complete on GWML.

When the 801s are delivered at the revised date, the 9 car bi modes will move to WoE services

However, Class 800s will be restricted to 110mph when operating on diesel.

Anyway, back to Class 170s

 

[class26]

Current plan being talked about is FGW/dft to place an add on order (via a ROSCO this time) for 19 9-Car Bi-Modes for WoE services. These would be built at the time when the 801s were supposed to be built, and operate the Bristols/Swansea's. The Electric IEP sets will be built after the East Coast Order and by that time, Electrification will(should?) be complete on GWML.

When the 801s are delivered at the revised date, the 9 car bi modes will move to WoE services

However, Class 800s will be restricted to 110mph when operating on diesel.

Anyway, back to Class 170s

I thought IEP`s had to have a 140 mph capacity with electric and 125 with "self power" ?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Even if the wires aren't ready they can be used in diesel mode surely?

Would they be able to do the whole route in "diesel mode" on a single tank of fuel?