ScotRail under fire after major disruption around Edinburgh on Saturday 24 August

[ashkeba]

Secondly modern trains are very pricey items of equipment. It is simply not economic to have an over supply of equipment for a once a year event. The only possible increase might be if stock could be drafted in from other areas but that in itself would cause major problems.

I read that Class 365 trains previously used in Scotland are stood idle at the moment. Surely that's evenn less economic!

 

[mrmartin]

I really can't understand why there isn't a half hourly night service between at least Edinburgh and Glasgow on festival weekends. There are many lines to use that are electrified and stock available. It would spread the demand for the crush of last services from Edinburgh over an extended period as well.

 

[Northhighland]

There is a charge that the SG of various hues since devolution has helped put Scotland more on the map, so things have got busier and bigger. The infrastructure situation is certainly better than it was in 1998 - the rate of improvement unless basically infinite can never overcome many decades of grossly inadequate infrastructure spend in the UK.

Edinburgh is a capital city hosting the biggest annual arts festival in the world, but for decades like the rest of Scotland investment in infrastructure by HM Government was barely adequate for a small provincial market town (and the rest of Scotland far below even that).

A tourist tax is trotted out as a potential solution, but unless it was expressly ring fenced for tourism or infrastructure related spending it would achieve nothing unless the intent was to set it at a deterrence level to discourage tourism, and that level isn't very high. The UK has one of the highest VAT rates on accommodation providers and restaurants in the EU, putting a tourist tax on top of that could be extremely damaging.

What is arguably needed is a geographic and industry related hypothecation of a proportion of VAT towards investing in infrastructure in popular tourist areas. At present the better the Scottish Tourism industry does the more VAT is raked in by the UK government, but it makes no difference to the SG budget whether tourism sector goes up or down. The SG in too many areas has responsibility, but no effective power - the tax changes made post IndyRef1 are first and foremost a fiscal trap for the intention of preserving the status quo.

A sizeable chunk of that VAT charged on visitor services should be spent in the local areas it's paid in to support creating a quality and sustainable tourism industry.

More mental gymnastics to avoid criticising your beloved party. Simply put there has been a welcome increase in tourism much due to SG marketing I agree, but your suggestion that the infrastructure is improving to support it is risible.

Skye roads are jam packed with potholes you could lose your children in. NC 500 rods are crumbling. No improvements happened none planned.

We are supposed to be enjoying Scotland’s best ever Railway, the political rhetoric is all about how great it is supposed to be. EDinburgh to Glasgow should be operating trouble free. It should be able to cope with the festival and a Rugby match.

It couldn’t. Not even close. Scotland’s best Railway? Your having a laugh.

 

[pt_mad]

Are some events too untouchable that they wouldn't ever be cancelled due to crowd control concerns? They cancelled Boardmasters, be it for other reasons but it wasn't untouchable.

 

[47271]

So the trouble wasn't just out west.

https://www.bordertelegraph.com/news/17861308.scotrail-slammed-weekend-hell-borderers/

The piece goes on about fare increases etc, so I've only quoted the most relevant bit.

SCOTRAIL has been slammed by Borders Railway users, following a weekend of hell experienced by passengers.

On Saturday, dozens of angry Scotrail customers took to social media to vent their anger over cancellations and the lack of carriages on the "disgraceful" service.

With an international rugby match and the Edinburgh Festival Fringe in full swing, Borderers were crammed into just two carriages on services throughout the day.

Sarah Bell, who departed Waverley on the 1754 service, said: "Children crying, adults looking unwell, clearly suffering from the heat on only 2 overcrowded carriages.

"Some people weren't even able to get on at Waverley."

And Neil Fox added: "Another day of misery on the Borders Railway. First test match at Murrayfield and the end of the Fringe, you [Scotrail] got it completely wrong again.

"We are fed up of your empty promises, overcrowded carriages and terrible excuses."

Rachael Hamilton MSP (Cons, Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) has written to the First Minister after the weekend of chaos, following previous assurance from ScotRail that extra carriages would be put on when big events are happening.

She said: Constituents get in touch with me all the time about poor service on the Borders Railway when there is a big event like the rugby on in Edinburgh - and this past weekend was no different.

"I have heard that some people have had to pay for eye watering taxi fares out of their own pockets to get home to the Borders from the capital as they had no other option.

"ScotRail and the Scottish Government must get on top of this situation before Borderers desert the train for good."

 

[Tony2]

Hold on! Every train they had was meant to be in use, but one went tech, as they say in the airlines.

No, for instance the two Fife Circle loco hauled trains stood idle when they could have been used with a bit of pre planning. It's all been done before for the golf and been highly successful.

 

[Chrism20]

I agree with what most of the others have said about the Festival, however from looking at the Evening News, Police Twitter etc there doesn’t seem to have been a spike in problems over the weekend being reported. The main problems seem to have started when people made their way into Waverley. I also live near Murrayfield and from observation on Saturday the organisation pre and post match seems to have worked pretty much like every other one has since we moved up here.

I’ll take most of the above back. Front page of the today’s evening news has the headline quoting Lothian Buses boss saying “We can’t cope”.

Lothian bus bosses have admitted meeting their schedules during the Festival season is “impossible” after a users’ group branded this year’s congestion the “worst ever”.

Nigel Serafini, the commercial director of the bus company, blamed rising visitor numbers, roadworks and utility works for Lothian’s struggle to stick to its timetable.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....ear-s-congestion-branded-worst-ever-1-4991718

 

[DarloRich]

Pictures shown look no worse ( and in fact better) than peak hour trains into London so I don't really know what the fuss is about...........................

I’d be curious if Scotrail are either incompetent at planning their trains or if not that,

yeah. bound to be that.

They are not in any way focused on customer service. Customers do not feature in their decision making. Until they fundamentally change we will see more of this second or third rate service.

could you explain how customers can feature in decision making? Should they give you a ring and run every plan past you?

The Fringe doesn't really benefit Edinburgh, or Scotland, at all. It has pretty much nothing to do with either. Vast numbers of people decend on the city to watch a string of 20-something guys in t-shirts tell the same anti-Brexit jokes on a loop in a bid to make it onto Mock The Week. In some regards the Fringe is oddly staid and safe.

I suspect that there is a fair bit of money spent in pubs and restaurants and hotels...........

Tourism needs regulated in our small country. Or it gets ruined, for tourists and residents. North coast 500. Too many camper vans. Roads too small. Congestion on Skye. Ferries over booked and breaking down.

Lets see how long you last without our money. I have done the NC500 ( we actually did much more without any problems) and spent a fair bit in the local economy doing it. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered.

the word available

Correct - this is the key to the whole thing.

 

[Northhighland]

Pictures shown look no worse ( and in fact better) than peak hour trains into London so I don't really know what the fuss is about...........................



yeah. bound to be that.



could you explain how customers can feature in decision making? Should they give you a ring and run every plan past you?



I suspect that there is a fair bit of money spent in pubs and restaurants and hotels...........



Lets see how long you last without our money. I have done the NC500 ( we actually did much more without any problems) and spent a fair bit in the local economy doing it. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered.



Correct - this is the key to the whole thing.

From your reply it would appear that you don’t work in an organisation that is focused on serving customers?

To be truly customer focused an organisation needs to consider the needs of its customers in all its decision making across its management structure.

In successful service companies this something they strive to do. So when considering staffing levels for this weekend they would have considered the impact in customers of the service offered.

If that service couldn’t or was unlikely to meet demand they would then adopt a strategy of communicating this to customers. In advance.

None of this is revolutionary or particularly innovative. It is the way profitable service companies work.

Scotrail could and should be adopting this type of thinking.

Your poor attempt at sarcasm is reflective of an attitude that makes progress difficult.

If we are to have Scotland’s best ever Railway we need a sea change in attitude to the way the service is managed.

 

[HankyuDentetsu]

I managed to time it so that I got the absolute worst of the disruption on Saturday, and I can tell you it was not good.

The long and short of it was that I planned to take the 2233 Dunblane service to Linlithgow, but didn't arrive back in Linlithgow until after 2430. To say that this situation was handled poorly by ScotRail would be the understatement of the year. Yes, it was Festival time, and yes there was a game on at Murrayfield. Yes, it's difficult to get all the staff needed to put on services during a bank holiday weekend. And it's absolute worst case stuff when a new train breaks down at a critical time. But with that in mind, here's what went wrong:

• Communication was appalling. Most of the information we received was given by extremely flustered and thinly stretched BTP officers. ScotRail staff were nowhere to be seen, information boards were useless, station announcements basically non-existent.
• Most irksome, is that services which were clearly never going to run were still advertised as leaving on time, from a certain platform, until about 15 mins after their scheduled departure time, creating massive choke points and unsafe levels of overcrowding on platforms and ticket gate areas as people fled from one platform to another, repeatedly, for another service that was not going to run (and whose rolling stock was never even going to arrive). In our case, the 2245 and 2316 simply never ran, not a single explanation given as to why not... but both were assigned platform numbers which had hordes of people running in different directions as a result. Why do this?!?
• This statement about ScotRail running every train they had available... I just don't buy it. Given that ScotRail can run 4x 7/8car, and 4x 4car 385 services from Waverley to Queen Street and Dunblane at peak, why did so many services simply not turn up, and why was the 2330 Waverley to Queen Street running as a 6 car 170, and the 2334 to Dunblane a 5 car 170/158 hybrid? The massively reduced capacity meant that the vast majority of passengers couldn't physically get on the 2330. This, despite the fact that many passengers going straight to Glasgow were using the AtoB services instead. I'll be willing to back down on this if someone can provide a credible justification for why this happened.
• ScotRail's usually helpful twitter account was simply suggesting that we make "alternative transport arrangements" to get home. I'm sorry, what?! How?!
• It really didn't help that many people were drunk - and that a small portion of the general public didn't make matters any better here. The passengers in some cases could have behaved far, far better. However on the whole people were well behaved, and given the choke points that we were funnelled into around the ticket gate area, to be honest, things could quite have easily gone far worse. I'm actually amazed, in that instance, how calmly everyone behaved.

The simple fact is, is that time and again when it comes to the days that ScotRail really needs to step up and perform, it is found wanting. Someone on the 385 thread said that when ScotRail does things well, it does them very well, but when things go wrong, they go very wrong. I agree with this sentiment. I don't mind crowded trains, standing room only etc; as someone pointed out that in London this is par for the course during commuting hours. However when it's late at night and everyone is pretty drunk, that makes for a very different experience; a far less controllable and predictable one. Even worse when they were so over-packed that hundreds of people can't even get on them. I feel genuinely sorry as well, for tourists caught up in this. I'd say it must have been pretty unsettling, and embarrassing that we simply can't get the big moments like this right. Did we ever find out what actually happened to the broken down 385?

 

[47271]

Just on the breakdown, someone posted upthread (I can't seem to find it now) that the culprit was the 2045 Edinburgh- Queen Street, which if this is to be believed flaked out somewhere after Winchburgh.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G80426/2019/08/24

However, it seemed to make it to Queen Street 59L, so not the worst breakdown in rail history.

Added to the fact that they were in chaos in the east as well, you do wonder if this was going to happen anyway and the breakdown and trespass, whilst aggravating factors, are being used as excuses.

 

[DarloRich]

From your reply it would appear that you don’t work in an organisation that is focused on serving customers?

To be truly customer focused an organisation needs to consider the needs of its customers in all its decision making across its management structure.

In successful service companies this something they strive to do. So when considering staffing levels for this weekend they would have considered the impact in customers of the service offered.

That isnt what you asked. You asked for customers to be put at the heart of the decision making process. How do Scotrial do that? Could you perhaps answer that question instead of setting out things that will already happen.

Also on the staffing point: What would your answer be if work rang you on your day off and asked you to come in? I know what mine would be - No. The chances are on a weekend i would be unfit for work anyway by way of having had a glass of wine or beer with my dinner.

If that service couldn’t or was unlikely to meet demand they would then adopt a strategy of communicating this to customers. In advance.

And when they do that you will kick off about how they cant run a service!

None of this is revolutionary or particularly innovative. It is the way profitable service companies work.

Scotrail could and should be adopting this type of thinking.

I bet they already do. In my opinion your view is not customer first but customer only and i feel that is realistic. No business, successful service based or otherwise, runs on the basis of customer only.

BTW you know nothing about my employment history. I have considerable experience of building and keeping customers and earning their repeat business so I am comfortable about my focus on "serving customers", thanks. Some of that reputation is based on telling the customer the word no and giving them advice they don't want to hear.

Your poor attempt at sarcasm is reflective of an attitude that makes progress difficult.

If we are to have Scotland’s best ever Railway we need a sea change in attitude to the way the service is managed.

And, by the same token, the inability and unwillingness ( perhaps willful unwillingness) of people like you to face reality makes change equally difficult. We ALL have to be realistic rather than hope for some fantasy unicorn land!

One solution-cancel fringe indefinitely. Not worth the hassle

I wonder if the businesses of Edinburgh will agree.

• Communication was appalling. Most of the information we received was given by extremely flustered and thinly stretched BTP officers. ScotRail staff were nowhere to be seen, information boards were useless, station announcements basically non-existent.

• Most irksome, is that services which were clearly never going to run were still advertised as leaving on time, from a certain platform, until about 15 mins after their scheduled departure time, creating massive choke points and unsafe levels of overcrowding on platforms and ticket gate areas as people fled from one platform to another, repeatedly, for another service that was not going to run (and whose rolling stock was never even going to arrive). In our case, the 2245 and 2316 simply never ran, not a single explanation given as to why not... but both were assigned platform numbers which had hordes of people running in different directions as a result. Why do this?!?

• This statement about ScotRail running every train they had available... I just don't buy it. Given that ScotRail can run 4x 7/8car, and 4x 4car 385 services from Waverley to Queen Street and Dunblane at peak, why did so many services simply not turn up, and why was the 2330 Waverley to Queen Street running as a 6 car 170, and the 2334 to Dunblane a 5 car 170/158 hybrid? The massively reduced capacity meant that the vast majority of passengers couldn't physically get on the 2330. This, despite the fact that many passengers going straight to Glasgow were using the AtoB services instead. I'll be willing to back down on this if someone can provide a credible justification for why this happened.

they are own goals and should be sorted out.

However staffing will be an issue if you are relying on goodwill and overtime to provide extra staff. Like I said I wouldn't go in to work on my day off. Would you?

 

[ejstubbs]

An event I remember where the event was just too big to be managed. Interesting article on it.....

And this happened last year:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ain-chaos-leaves-revellers-stranded-for-hours

Brighton Pride revellers have complained of being stranded for several hours as a result of delays at the city’s train station as huge crowds attempted to make their home.

People were forced to wait in long queues outside Brighton station on Saturday night, with services held to allow more people to board. Southern rail said the measures were implemented because of overcrowding, having earlier said the station could be closed at short notice.

 

[Northhighland]

That isnt what you asked. You asked for customers to be put at the heart of the decision making process. How do Scotrial do that? Could you perhaps answer that question instead of setting out things that will already happen.

Also on the staffing point: What would your answer be if work rang you on your day off and asked you to come in? I know what mine would be - No. The chances are on a weekend i would be unfit for work anyway by way of having had a glass of wine or beer with my dinner.



And when they do that you will kick off about how they cant run a service!



I bet they already do. In my opinion your view is not customer first but customer only and i feel that is realistic. No business, successful service based or otherwise, runs on the basis of customer only.

BTW you know nothing about my employment history. I have considerable experience of building and keeping customers and earning their repeat business so I am comfortable about my focus on "serving customers", thanks. Some of that reputation is based on telling the customer the word no and giving them advice they don't want to hear.



And, by the same token, the inability and unwillingness ( perhaps willful unwillingness) of people like you to face reality makes change equally difficult. We ALL have to be realistic rather than hope for some fantasy unicorn land!




I wonder if the businesses of Edinburgh will agree.



they are own goals and should be sorted out.

However staffing will be an issue if you are relying on goodwill and overtime to provide extra staff. Like I said I wouldn't go in to work on my day off. Would you?

Are you trolling or serious? I clearly answered your question, do you understand what you are asking?

Assuming you do there is no way you can say any of the things I described in my reply actually happen just now.

Scotrail do not consider passengers when making decisions, there are numerous examples apart from this weekend that show passengers are regarded as a nuisance to staff.

Decisions need to consider passengers. Herding people like cattle on a two car 158 instead of the 4 coach HST is a really good example. Maybe that is the only unit that can run that service that day. Tell people, inform of the alternatives that may not be so crowded. None of that happens that would be an example of customer focus.

I work in a service company, if we delivered services in the way Scotrail do we would be out of business.

 

[David M]

Posters are conflating two issues

Firstly there is a tourism issue in Scotland. We take in the cash but don’t spend on the infrastructure to support the increased volume of visitors.
The usual suspects will trot out the usual excuses but this is wholly a SG problem.

It is not wholly an SG issue as you have linked it to taking in the cash. The monies generated are not seen by the SG. So, the We in your first statement is the UK.

 

[Northhighland]

I managed to time it so that I got the absolute worst of the disruption on Saturday, and I can tell you it was not good.

The long and short of it was that I planned to take the 2233 Dunblane service to Linlithgow, but didn't arrive back in Linlithgow until after 2430. To say that this situation was handled poorly by ScotRail would be the understatement of the year. Yes, it was Festival time, and yes there was a game on at Murrayfield. Yes, it's difficult to get all the staff needed to put on services during a bank holiday weekend. And it's absolute worst case stuff when a new train breaks down at a critical time. But with that in mind, here's what went wrong:

• Communication was appalling. Most of the information we received was given by extremely flustered and thinly stretched BTP officers. ScotRail staff were nowhere to be seen, information boards were useless, station announcements basically non-existent.
• Most irksome, is that services which were clearly never going to run were still advertised as leaving on time, from a certain platform, until about 15 mins after their scheduled departure time, creating massive choke points and unsafe levels of overcrowding on platforms and ticket gate areas as people fled from one platform to another, repeatedly, for another service that was not going to run (and whose rolling stock was never even going to arrive). In our case, the 2245 and 2316 simply never ran, not a single explanation given as to why not... but both were assigned platform numbers which had hordes of people running in different directions as a result. Why do this?!?
• This statement about ScotRail running every train they had available... I just don't buy it. Given that ScotRail can run 4x 7/8car, and 4x 4car 385 services from Waverley to Queen Street and Dunblane at peak, why did so many services simply not turn up, and why was the 2330 Waverley to Queen Street running as a 6 car 170, and the 2334 to Dunblane a 5 car 170/158 hybrid? The massively reduced capacity meant that the vast majority of passengers couldn't physically get on the 2330. This, despite the fact that many passengers going straight to Glasgow were using the AtoB services instead. I'll be willing to back down on this if someone can provide a credible justification for why this happened.
• ScotRail's usually helpful twitter account was simply suggesting that we make "alternative transport arrangements" to get home. I'm sorry, what?! How?!
• It really didn't help that many people were drunk - and that a small portion of the general public didn't make matters any better here. The passengers in some cases could have behaved far, far better. However on the whole people were well behaved, and given the choke points that we were funnelled into around the ticket gate area, to be honest, things could quite have easily gone far worse. I'm actually amazed, in that instance, how calmly everyone behaved.

The simple fact is, is that time and again when it comes to the days that ScotRail really needs to step up and perform, it is found wanting. Someone on the 385 thread said that when ScotRail does things well, it does them very well, but when things go wrong, they go very wrong. I agree with this sentiment. I don't mind crowded trains, standing room only etc; as someone pointed out that in London this is par for the course during commuting hours. However when it's late at night and everyone is pretty drunk, that makes for a very different experience; a far less controllable and predictable one. Even worse when they were so over-packed that hundreds of people can't even get on them. I feel genuinely sorry as well, for tourists caught up in this. I'd say it must have been pretty unsettling, and embarrassing that we simply can't get the big moments like this right. Did we ever find out what actually happened to the broken down 385?

Scotrail could have communicated the potential issues in the days leading up to the events. Could have assisted people in making informed decisions before they left home.

This is not rocket science.

 

[DarloRich]

Are you trolling or serious? I clearly answered your question, do you understand what you are asking?

it seems your view has changed.

It is no longer that passengers should be at the heart of the decision making process but that they should be considered. I maintain that will be happening. Although it is easier simply to assign bad faith to every decision you don't agree with rather than accept things in the real world are not as straight forward as you would like to suggest.

do not consider passengers when making decisions, there are numerous examples apart from this weekend that show passengers are regarded as a nuisance to staff.

Decisions need to consider passengers. Herding people like cattle on a two car 158 instead of the 4 coach HST is a really good example. Maybe that is the only unit that can run that service that day. Tell people, inform of the alternatives that may not be so crowded. None of that happens that would be an example of customer focus.

I maintain that Scotrail DO consider passengers. They just cant magic up unicorns like you suggest! The issue is that you don't agree with the decisions made. Perhaps the 2 car 158 is the only train available. Should Scotrail "consider the passengers" and cancel that service? How would you respond to that decision? Damned if they do, damned if they don't!

On staffing railway workers still have some union protection from abuses of managers. Perhaps you can simply be compelled to work out of hours but lots of railway workers cant. That might not sit well with you (and others) but it is a reality. All customer focused decision making must consider what workforce you have available. As I said: if your employer rang you out of hours on a weekend and asked you to come into work would you say yes? I wouldn't.

I take entirely a point that planning and staff provision may have been inadequate. That said, what can you do if your weekend operation is run on goodwill and their is no desire to sit down and negotiate, hard, with staff and the evil unions to change that?

Scotrail could have communicated the potential issues in the days leading up to the events. Could have assisted people in making informed decisions before they left home.

While I agree would that have made any issues go away? Would you not be here complaining just as much about poor service provision but criticising them for honesty rather than assumed bad practice?

 

[Mingulay]

More mental gymnastics to avoid criticising your beloved party. Simply put there has been a welcome increase in tourism much due to SG marketing I agree, but your suggestion that the infrastructure is improving to support it is risible.

Skye roads are jam packed with potholes you could lose your children in. NC 500 rods are crumbling. No improvements happened none planned.

We are supposed to be enjoying Scotland’s best ever Railway, the political rhetoric is all about how great it is supposed to be. EDinburgh to Glasgow should be operating trouble free. It should be able to cope with the festival and a Rugby match.

It couldn’t. Not even close. Scotland’s best Railway? Your having a laugh.

Well said , and it needs saying more often , SG take responsibility !

 

[DarloRich]

Skye roads are jam packed with potholes you could lose your children in. NC 500 rods are crumbling. No improvements happened none planned.

The roads in Scotland are shocking full stop. My step dad broke ( as in shattered) a wheel in one pot hole near Paisley. Is that on the NC 500 route?

SG take responsibility !

Yes invest some of the tourist income in the roads. They are terrible. Even the M8 round Glasgow was in a bad state last time I drove on it!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Like I said I wouldn't go in to work on my day off. Would you?

Yes, if I was suitably incentivised to do so. Most people will if the price is right and their efforts are recognised.

It still doesn't answer why the 385s were tucked up in bed on the Saturday night, given they're so much bigger than 170s and 158s.

 

[DarloRich]

It still doesn't answer why the 385s were tucked up in bed on the Saturday night, given they're so much bigger than 170s and 158s.

all manner of reasons from lack of trained staff to leasing costs, maintenance and evilitude. Oh and cock up. Never rule out cock up!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Never rule out cock up!

I don't rule it out. Gormlessness is the likely cause.

But it rather undermines the argument from others that it's not Scotrail's fault!

 

[HankyuDentetsu]

That isnt what you asked. You asked for customers to be put at the heart of the decision making process. How do Scotrial do that? Could you perhaps answer that question instead of setting out things that will already happen.

Also on the staffing point: What would your answer be if work rang you on your day off and asked you to come in? I know what mine would be - No. The chances are on a weekend i would be unfit for work anyway by way of having had a glass of wine or beer with my dinner.

[...]

However staffing will be an issue if you are relying on goodwill and overtime to provide extra staff. Like I said I wouldn't go in to work on my day off. Would you?

This attitude absolutely baffles me. How about this: don't timetable - and thereby guarantee to run - services that you can only execute if your staff are willing to work overtime. How can you credibly run a vital public service when so much of it rests on the goodwill or need of your staff to earn more money? Yes, it'll cost more, but surely it should be absolutely mandatory to employ enough people on a full or part time basis whose contracts are geared towards weekend work? I used to work for Tesco, and was required to work on a Saturday and Sunday, until late. That was the contract. Nothing there about guilt tripping me into working weekend hours when I should be off. I had to do it, because that's what I signed up for, so that's what I did. How are hard can it be do have similar contracts for weekend staffing in ScotRail?

 

[DarloRich]

This attitude absolutely baffles me. How about this: don't timetable - and thereby guarantee to run - services that you can only execute if your staff are willing to work overtime. How can you credibly run a vital public service when so much of it rests on the goodwill or need of your staff to earn more money? Yes, it'll cost more, but surely it should be absolutely mandatory to employ enough people on a full or part time basis whose contracts are geared towards weekend work? I used to work for Tesco, and was required to work on a Saturday and Sunday, until late. That was the contract. Nothing there about guilt tripping me into working weekend hours when I should be off. I had to do it, because that's what I signed up for, so that's what I did. How are hard can it be do have similar contracts for weekend staffing in ScotRail?

I agree with you 100%. However we cant wish this problem away. We have to acknowledge it and then deal with it.

And to answer you question: Very hard. Very hard indeed. That isnt because the unions are evil and horrible people but because they want their members dealt with correctly and fairly. Comparing with other industries is not helpful and is part of the problem because you are not comparing like with like.

 

[HankyuDentetsu]

I agree with you 100%. However we cant wish this problem away. We have to acknowledge it and then deal with it.

And to answer you question: Very hard. Very hard indeed. That isnt because the unions are evil and horrible people but because they want their members dealt with correctly and fairly. Comparing with other industries is not helpful and is part of the problem because you are not comparing like with like.

You are absolutely right - all staff should be dealt with in a fair and correct manner, union members or otherwise.

But why can't we compare with other industries here? Are people who work for ScotRail or other TOCs somehow different? How is a driver or guard being contractually obliged to work until 11.30pm on Saturday evening any different from a doctor having to work Saturday backshift at the A&E, a policeman having to work the Saturday backshift on the beat, or a pilot having to work a late Saturday flight from London to Edinburgh? These are mandatory arrangements - they don't have a choice - they have to work; I know this because I have friends in each of these professions who do just that.

 

[DarloRich]

You are absolutely right - all staff should be dealt with in a fair and correct manner, union members or otherwise.

But why can't we compare with other industries here? Are people who work for ScotRail or other TOCs somehow different? How is a driver or guard being contractually obliged to work until 11.30pm on Saturday evening any different from a doctor having to work Saturday backshift at the A&E, a policeman having to work the Saturday backshift on the beat, or a pilot having to work a late Saturday flight from London to Edinburgh? These are mandatory arrangements - they don't have a choice - they have to work; I know this because I have friends in each of these professions who do just that.

Because while they may well have similar rostered hours they will have very different contractual terms which do not allow for the same level of compulsion to work extra hours that exists in other industries.

The only way to "fix" that is to negotiate with the evil unions and do a deal. Such a deal will be neither cheap nor quick.

 

[Journeyman]

On staffing railway workers still have some union protection from abuses of managers. Perhaps you can simply be compelled to work out of hours but lots of railway workers cant. That might not sit well with you (and others) but it is a reality. All customer focused decision making must consider what workforce you have available. As I said: if your employer rang you out of hours on a weekend and asked you to come into work would you say yes? I wouldn't.

Many people on the railway will work every hour God sends given half the chance, but that number drops sharply as soon as you start losing goodwill and forcing people into situations where all they'll get is grief all day.

Personally, it would take a LOT to make me drop personal plans and do overtime. Let's start with a big bundle of fifty pound notes, and a golden wheelbarrow to take them home in.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But why can't we compare with other industries here? Are people who work for ScotRail or other TOCs somehow different?

TOC staff on old contracts will agree to changes if the price is right. Different terms for different staff is risky without an agreement though, and unlike Asda, fire-and-rehire isn't an option.

Mostly, though, it is cheaper for TOCs to pay overtime than hire more staff. And staff will generally do the extra hours when there is some level of goodwill. Sadly recent government policies- on both sides of the border- is diminishing that goodwill, as is poor TOC management. Fundamentally people won't volunteer for extra if you treat them like crap.

 

[DarloRich]

TOC staff on old contracts will agree to changes if the price is right. Different terms for different staff is risky without an agreement though, and unlike Asda, fire-and-rehire isn't an option.

Mostly, though, it is cheaper for TOCs to pay overtime than hire more staff. And staff will generally do the extra hours when there is some level of goodwill. Sadly recent government policies- on both sides of the border- is diminishing that goodwill, as is poor TOC management. Fundamentally people won't volunteer for extra if you treat them like crap.

and there is the best answer you are going to get!

I will also point out that some people will simply never do extra. They value their own time and wont sell it cheaply.

 

[Hooligan]

No, for instance the two Fife Circle loco hauled trains stood idle when they could have been used with a bit of pre planning. It's all been done before for the golf and been highly successful.

“If” DRS had drivers for them !