ScotRail under fire after major disruption around Edinburgh on Saturday 24 August

[scotrail158713]

Just on the breakdown, someone posted upthread (I can't seem to find it now) that the culprit was the 2045 Edinburgh- Queen Street, which if this is to be believed flaked out somewhere after Winchburgh.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G80426/2019/08/24

However, it seemed to make it to Queen Street 59L, so not the worst breakdown in rail history.

Added to the fact that they were in chaos in the east as well, you do wonder if this was going to happen anyway and the breakdown and trespass, whilst aggravating factors, are being used as excuses.

For a journey scheduled for roughly 45 minutes though it’s fairly late.

One positive for Scotrail on Saturday though - the 16.45 to North Berwick was cancelled and a 3-car 385 rolled in for the 17.15. Approximately 5 minutes before departure, with the train rammed full, an announcement was made to leave the train and go over to a different platform where there’ll be a longer train. A 6-car 385 was sat at said platform so I thought “That’s better”. 2 minutes later we were told to go back to the original platform where a 4-car 380 stood. Overall, it was executed messily, but they did lengthen a busy train at short notice so ‘Well Done’ in that respect.
Sounds like pretty much everything else was a shambles though.

 

[haggishunter]

The roads in Scotland are shocking full stop.
....
Yes invest some of the tourist income in the roads. They are terrible. Even the M8 round Glasgow was in a bad state last time I drove on it!

Which part of this is so difficult for people to grasp? Not one penny of the tourist spend in Scotland that enters the taxation system accrues to the Scottish Government - it goes straight to HM Treasury, with no effect on the SG budget.

Perhaps some of those that shot down my post regards localising VAT and/or changing some of it to a tourist tax, would like to suggest an alternative way to fund the further infrastructure improvements if they think that is mental gymnastics?

As for there not being any improvement in infrastructure since devolution, maybe some posters need to take a drive on the AWPR, or ride the Inverness - Aberdeen Railway line. Where was the investment in the NE infrastructure when the oil money was absolutely gushing from the North Sea - oh that's right there wasn't any, Aberdeen was left with the medieval aberration that is the Bridge of Dee to carry the main A90 arterial trunk road south from the city, while the treasury coined it in.

Those criticising the SG and devolution for the lack of rolling stock capacity on the borders railway, well at least without devolution that wouldn't be a problem, because there would be no borders railway.

To bring this back to ScotRail, well there seems to be a recurring theme with Abellio - promise the earth, deliver a shambles. This is one of the big fails of the franchising model, they bids have to be based on what is in the bid without regard of past experience of how the bidder has matched up to their promises.

 

[al78]

Lets see how long you last without our money. I have done the NC500 ( we actually did much more without any problems) and spent a fair bit in the local economy doing it. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered.

Just because some is good, doesn't automatically mean more is better, and so on to infinity. There are other issues than money money money. The Scottish highlands are an area of outstanding natural beauty, and have some of the lowest density population in Europe, so the infrastructure, which is limited and designed to serve the low population, can struggle to cope with a very large number of tourists, plus the people that live there have to work, and the extra traffic congestion and clueless idiots who don't know how to drive on single track roads does cause issues. Just because YOU PERSONALLY didn't cause a problem, doesn't mean there aren't negative cumulative effects, no-one is suggesting you or any other individual stays away. Step out of yourself and look at the bigger picture.

 

[Deltic1961]

well there seems to be a recurring theme with Abellio - promise the earth, deliver a shambles.

On that note, Alex was on his way to Fife earlier to promise the natives longer trains and a better service ...... again.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is one of the big fails of the franchising model, they bids have to be based on what is in the bid without regard of past experience of how the bidder has matched up to their promises.

If we disqualified any bidder who'd made a dog's breakfast of a previous franchise, we'd not have anyone left.

But nationalising would still use the same managers. Who- if Alex Hynes is seen as the best in the business- are clearly Not Very Good.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Can some Scots members of the board flesh out in more detail what changes the current franchisee has made to dramatically lower staff morale and willingness to work overtime?

As a former manager with ‘ScotRail’ in apparently happier times it is sad to read of recent difficulties.

 

[HankyuDentetsu]

Thanks for the explanations everyone - I'm much clearer now on the issue. It's a sorry state we've got ourselves in, to be quite frank, but I can clearly see how the spectre of different terms for different staff is a real and obvious sticking point that won't make change easy.

And just to be clear; I totally agree that if you are dutifully completing the hours you are contracted to do, then whether you do (or don't do) overtime is and should be very much up to you! I'm just a bit confused as to how we are in this position where we rely on goodwill to provide an essential service like this, and how we clearly do not have the required manpower to fully staff every weekend service without having to worry about ifs and buts. Quite remarkable actually.

 

[47271]

Can some Scots members of the board flesh out in more detail what changes the current franchisee has made to dramatically lower staff morale and willingness to work overtime?

As a former manager with ‘ScoRail’ in apparently happier times it is sad to read of recent difficulties.

In my opinion, and no more than my opinion, changes brought on by a combination of massive upheavals (extensive electrification and intercity fleet replacement to name but two), their own arrogance and incompetence, and some bad luck thrown in for good measure.

 

[Chrism20]

Just on the breakdown, someone posted upthread (I can't seem to find it now) that the culprit was the 2045 Edinburgh- Queen Street, which if this is to be believed flaked out somewhere after Winchburgh.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G80426/2019/08/24

However, it seemed to make it to Queen Street 59L, so not the worst breakdown in rail history.

Added to the fact that they were in chaos in the east as well, you do wonder if this was going to happen anyway and the breakdown and trespass, whilst aggravating factors, are being used as excuses.

I'm assuming that this (And possibly the driver & guard) would have formed the 2245 from Edinburgh.

The 2115 (Which I assume would form the 2315 ex Edinburgh) also arrived in Queen Street 60L and the 2145 (Assume forms the 2345 ex Edinburgh) arrived into Queen Street 45L.

Whilst I acknowledge that ScotRail could have handled things better it looks like the stock and quite possibly the crew for what was probably the three busiest services were knocked out and was at the opposite end of the line.

Looking at it they may (crew hours permitting) have been better terminating 2115 at Polmont and turning it back rather than soldier on to Queen Street where at least one set would have been where the crowds were. A large number of the passengers on the 2115 and the 2145 would have been only going to Linlithgow & Polmont anyway so terminating there the 2145 could more than likely have coped with the numbers bumped off the 2115.

 

[snookertam]

Interesting replies to the thread, particularly regarding the culprit failure and where it failed. That is a big problem with there being no diversionary route unless a diesel unit is used to work via Dalmeny, however the challenge is having them available. However I've also noticed that Fife bound services were also affected by overcrowding on the night, so it wasn't all down to the failure.

As for the issues with staff morale, goodwill etc, I can't answer that question fully however I can say from my own past exerience that as soon as Abellio were announced as being the new franchise holder there were a lot of concerns raised by staff internally about what the future held. From what I can gather now ScotRail are losing a lot of experienced staff in operational roles and in many cases are failing to replace them, or where they are replaced. I'm told they also see a senior management who don't really seem to know what they want from one week to the next and appear to be in constant fire fighting mode, and so leadership appears to be lacking.

The botched/delayed introduction of the class 385s and the HSTs (the very fact HSTs are being introduced at all!), combined with the loss of the class 170s has resulted in staff feeling like their jobs are being made unrealistically difficult at times (I appreciate that some of these things are beyond abellio's control). There's also an impression that abellio are more interested in the public relations through social media than they are in running a consistently good service daily, which again has affecting staff morale - they are on occasion being expected to take actions in respect of train service delivery that they feel are just wrong. It used to be under First Group that ScotRail would fight to continue to run train services in order to keep passengers moving where Network rail were insisting on cancellations. Now with the 'ScotRail alliance' and heavier involvement of Network Rail in train running, the suspicion is that the option of cancelling everything seems to be resorted to far too hastily.

Even under First Group positions such as dispatch staff and customer service staff within stations tended to go uncovered with a reliance on overtime (and that's before we get to traincrew positions!) so if abellio have continued in this vein then it's little surprise that any remaining goodwill is non-existent.

First Group were never exactly greatly loved by the staff there, but those seem like halcyon days compared to now.

 

[Class 170101]

I read that Class 365 trains previously used in Scotland are stood idle at the moment. Surely that's evenn less economic!

Can't see the DfT loaning them to Transport Scotland. We have already seen how the previous Transport Secretary in Westminster felt about devolving railways to a Labour Mayor.

 

[alangla]

I don't rule it out. Gormlessness is the likely cause.

But it rather undermines the argument from others that it's not Scotrail's fault!

I suspect this might be part of the “all available trains” comment as well. What’s the betting that Hitachi have a contract to turn out X number of vehicles M-F peaks, a lower number off-peak and similar number all-day Saturday & Sunday, but someone forgot to specify a figure closer to the X number for Saturdays in August? ScotRail could therefore be telling the truth that all available 385s were out, but Hitachi may only have made a fraction of the fleet available, hence things like the 6x170 seen on Saturday.

Personally, I think they should have contracted for every E&G train to be 8 cars all day Saturday & Sunday (lower freq on Sunday obviously), SDA at 6 cars and all A2B trains scheduled for 6, especially after the evening frequency drop. All for the whole month of August. There’s almost always a rugby game at Murrayfield on a Saturday during the festival so there’s no excuse for Saturday’s demand not being forecasted and planned for.

 

[Tony2]

With pre-planning drivers and trains would have been available, that's my point. Drivers, trains and crews were all available for the golf specials run by these spare trains in the past.

“If” DRS had drivers for them !

Tony2 said: ↑
No, for instance the two Fife Circle loco hauled trains stood idle when they could have been used with a bit of pre planning. It's all been done before for the golf and been highly successful.

 

[Chrism20]

With pre-planning drivers and trains would have been available, that's my point. Drivers, trains and crews were all available for the golf specials run by these spare trains in the past.

Tony2 said: ↑
No, for instance the two Fife Circle loco hauled trains stood idle when they could have been used with a bit of pre planning. It's all been done before for the golf and been highly successful.

To be fair the golf extras ran at far more sociable hours with the last "Extra" being the 2024 from Carnoustie which would have been back in Edinburgh about 2215. Going out to do overtime in the morning or just doing a normal late is far more appealing than doing a 1am finish overtime shift on a train over run with people who are intoxicated. Unless there were significant wedges of cash being handed out I reckon there would be significantly less crew making themselves available.

There is also the issue of ensuring that the overtime shifts don't conflict with regular ones and that the minimum gaps between shifts etc are adhered to which may limit the pool further.

 

[mcmad]

A further complication would be DRS crews would be committed to engineering works over the weekend so potentially not available to cover additional TOC work.

 

[47271]

I'm assuming that this (And possibly the driver & guard) would have formed the 2245 from Edinburgh.

The 2115 (Which I assume would form the 2315 ex Edinburgh) also arrived in Queen Street 60L and the 2145 (Assume forms the 2345 ex Edinburgh) arrived into Queen Street 45L.

Whilst I acknowledge that ScotRail could have handled things better it looks like the stock and quite possibly the crew for what was probably the three busiest services were knocked out and was at the opposite end of the line.

Looking at it they may (crew hours permitting) have been better terminating 2115 at Polmont and turning it back rather than soldier on to Queen Street where at least one set would have been where the crowds were. A large number of the passengers on the 2115 and the 2145 would have been only going to Linlithgow & Polmont anyway so terminating there the 2145 could more than likely have coped with the numbers bumped off the 2115.

You're probably right. I've been there many times myself at that time of night on the E&G, but luckily without the crowds. I got home 45 mins late but with no more than a bit of sighing and tutting.

Well, there was the one time I was crush loaded on a 158 with a man simultaneously eating a fish supper and lapsing in and out of consciousness six inches away from my face, so I know what it's like, believe me. But that was the Friday night before Christmas so a similar scenario.

So what are we saying, build in extra resilience for the rare occasions when late night passenger numbers are at this sort of berserk level, so crew and units on standby, or just accept that s*** happens? That seems to be the simple decision that has to be taken.

 

[alangla]

So what are we saying, build in extra resilience for the rare occasions when late night passenger numbers are at this sort of berserk level, so crew and units on standby, or just accept that s*** happens? That seems to be the simple decision that has to be taken.

Something in the middle probably- contract enough stock from Hitachi to ensure everything is max length & there’s at least a spare pair of units somewhere in the Edinburgh area, ensure there’s crew to operate them, consider bunging VT (well, First) to operate their ECS runs to Polmadie as unadvertised crowd busters as per some previous occasions. Most of all, sort out the information and platform staffing, from the accounts above that appears to have been a complete, avoidable, shambles.

 

[47271]

Something in the middle probably- contract enough stock from Hitachi to ensure everything is max length & there’s at least a spare pair of units somewhere in the Edinburgh area, ensure there’s crew to operate them, consider bunging VT (well, First) to operate their ECS runs to Polmadie as unadvertised crowd busters as per some previous occasions. Most of all, sort out the information and platform staffing, from the accounts above that appears to have been a complete, avoidable, shambles.

Yup, I think that's about it. The only question that remains is whether they'll ever be capable of organising it. Given the number of unforeseen consequences that we experience aboard Scotrail on a day to day basis, especially when it comes to their haphazard operation of classic HSTs, I'm not sure that they are capable.

 

[Chrism20]

Something in the middle probably- contract enough stock from Hitachi to ensure everything is max length & there’s at least a spare pair of units somewhere in the Edinburgh area, ensure there’s crew to operate them, consider bunging VT (well, First) to operate their ECS runs to Polmadie as unadvertised crowd busters as per some previous occasions. Most of all, sort out the information and platform staffing, from the accounts above that appears to have been a complete, avoidable, shambles.

That would certainly go some way to addressing some of the issues. There needs to be a robust crisis management plan in place and someone senior from ScotRail probably should be in attendance on evenings like that. Was there anyone there on Saturday or was it just left to boots on the ground?

In the case of VT though does the guard go back to Polmadie as well as the driver? I thought it was just the driver that went back.

Looking RTT from Saturday it looks like the last two XC services to Glasgow terminated at Edinburgh (Presumably due to their ongoing dispute) which won't have helped matters.

It may also be worth running the odd additional service starting from P0 at Haymarket to help clear the crowds of people there.

 

[Deltic1961]

ScotRail slated as passenger journeys fall by 1m

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17864047.scotrail-slated-passenger-journeys-fall-1m/

Blaming the weather and Engineering works. Hmmmm. As I have said many times before people are walking away from their unreliable service and finding alternative methods of travelling.

 

[Highland37]

The franchise is not going well and as you say, people are moving to more reliable methods of transport than the railway.

That said, engineering works have taken place and left some improvements but can not be used as the excuse for ScotRail's poor performance. Then there is the HST farce...

 

[Tetchytyke]

What’s the betting that Hitachi have a contract to turn out X number of vehicles M-F peaks, a lower number off-peak and similar number all-day Saturday & Sunday, but someone forgot to specify a figure closer to the X number for Saturdays in August?

I'd not give you good odds on that being the case.

As I said, "available" was doing a lot of heavy lifting in that press release.

This is the downside of these build and maintain deals. Extra capacity outside the contract is prohibitively expensive, see the WMT 350/2s for more information.

 

[Journeyman]

ScotRail slated as passenger journeys fall by 1m

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17864047.scotrail-slated-passenger-journeys-fall-1m/

Blaming the weather and Engineering works. Hmmmm. As I have said many times before people are walking away from their unreliable service and finding alternative methods of travelling.

Up until April I was commuting regularly from Linlithgow to Glasgow. I'm currently working much closer to home and not using the train, but given how things have been recently, I'd certainly think twice about how I'd travel if my next job is further away.

 

[DarloRich]

Just because some is good, doesn't automatically mean more is better, and so on to infinity. There are other issues than money money money. The Scottish highlands are an area of outstanding natural beauty, and have some of the lowest density population in Europe, so the infrastructure, which is limited and designed to serve the low population, can struggle to cope with a very large number of tourists, plus the people that live there have to work, and the extra traffic congestion and clueless idiots who don't know how to drive on single track roads does cause issues. Just because YOU PERSONALLY didn't cause a problem, doesn't mean there aren't negative cumulative effects, no-one is suggesting you or any other individual stays away. Step out of yourself and look at the bigger picture.

With respect, I think it is you who is unable to see the bigger picture.