ScotRail's December 2018 timetable change

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by 318266, 5 Oct 2018.

  1. 318266

    318266 Member

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    So far:

    Dumbarton - Cumbernauld truncated to Springburn
    Glasgow - Edinburgh via Cumbernauld finally starts
    Dunblane - Edinburgh will skip Polmont and Linlithgow
     
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  3. snookertam

    snookertam Member

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    There was a post in the improvements thread which suggested the improvements should have been Dunblane - edinburgh semi fast, complemented by a Stirling - Edinburgh stopping service. For starters, a 4tph Stirling to Edinburgh service you'd think would be far more demand than a 2tph service which is effectively from Springburn. Have to say that I'd sympathise with this suggestion.

    A 2tph service to Cumbernauld, with one or possibly both extending to Falkirk Grahamston, could have continued easily.
     
  4. Stopper

    Stopper Member

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    100% agree with this
     
  5. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

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    Make that a clock-face:-

    Semi fast, Dunblane-Edinburgh - 2x an hour.
    Stopper, Alloa-Edinburgh - 1x an hour
    Stopper, Stirling-Edinburgh - 1x an hour

    Ideally 2x Hour Alloa if infrastructure permits instead of 1x & 1x.

    What's happened with the timetable is utterly awful though. The Scottish Goverment's decision to slash key commuter services from Dunblane to Edinburgh in the morning, and increase the length of evening commuter journeys by 50% is nothing short of a disgrace. Word amongst commuters from the beautiful Cathedral City is that it's an act of revenge for the ongoing discontent amongst the locals over Park of Keir.

    Anyone know if there is a path available to run a limited stop daily charter between 07:08 & 07:35 and a return at 17:30 ish?
     
  6. Grinner

    Grinner Member

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    Are the timetables actually completed yet? I'm not famililar with the system but I have it in the back on my mind that at this stage of the year services would still be being finalised so there is a reasonable chance of an additional Dubland service being added before December.

    And Dunblane is not a city, I don't think city status has worked that way in Scotland for a very long time (if ever) given the lack of actual cathedrals in the Church of Scotland since the reformation. But I don't want to sidetrack the thread.
     
  7. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

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    Commuters can only rely on what Scotrail choose to publish on the timetable. If someone has to give notice to an employer due to the timetable change, they'll have to do it soon.

    Of course, there'll be smiles all round if it turns out that LNER will start running an 07:00 service from Perth via Stirling...

    [​IMG]

    Dunblane Cathedral is in a different league. Almost uniquely, it's owned directly by the Crown.
     
    Last edited: 8 Oct 2018
  8. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

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    I do hope that after all the promises and pain in getting the project done there is some tangible improvement. I understand we lose our fast service at 17.26 Ed to Dunblane and our choice is 17.18 which is no faster than normal and then at 17.50 which is a bit quicker than normal . Not sure about mornings yet , but if they are over the hour and are 2 not 3 in the peak , it looks like the commute is poorer not better ? Hope I have got this wrong ?
     
  9. mcmad

    mcmad Member

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    Not seeing any improvements in the Glasgow - Dunblane/Alloa trains either, much the same timings and durations with the poor regulation at Larbert Junction no doubt continuing.
     
  10. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

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    Really ? I use both services ! I will keep my powder dry till its fully a 385 service , but if its not more seats and quicker and as frequent as present, then the verdict will inevitably be reasonably that it has failed to deliver the promised improvements . Arguably poorer if fewer services in peak !!
     
  11. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    If you want to include Dunblane then presumably Elgin, Ayr and St Andrews qualify as cities? Maybe even Brechin...

    More seriously though, whilst I'm sure that four/hour from Edinburgh to Stirling would be nice for those living there, politics mean that the two additional paths were bound to go to Cumbernauld (economic regeneration, spreading the Edinburgh commuter market further etc) and Gartcosh (the Polis).

    Could be that the initial EMU timetable retains similar timings to the DMU one, until the fleet beds in and electric traction can be "guaranteed" - for example when the 350/4s replaced 185s they didn't increase speeds on the TPE services from day one - they wait until the next timetable change before speeding services up a bit.

    Otherwise you end up speeding services up then finding out that your unreliable boxfresh EMUs aren't in squadron service every day and have to keep substituting with 90mph DMUs instead (which are unable to match EMU diagrams).

    This way, you get the "new train bounce" and then the "faster services bounce" too six/twelve months later.
     
  12. Stopper

    Stopper Member

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    4tph Stirling to Edinburgh is a much better idea than 2tph to Cumbernauld. It’s okay to experiment with new commuter services (such as Cumbernauld), but not when they use the E-G mainline and take up paths at Newbridge Jn, while making several stations have a poorer service in the process. That’s not acceptable in any way!
     
  13. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

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    Mmmmmm! This sounds like a watering down of the sales spiel. Or certainly jam tomorrow. But one can only judge the end product at the end of the process whenever that will be. A full fleet of 385 having had six months to bed in. So in essence a year from now or longer ?

    So what will success look like for the travelling public in Dunblane ? I suggest faster journey times in peak. Not off peak. More seats. And no fewer services we have now and fewer cancellations given better reliability . That would be a fair measure of the boasts being sold to us all from Scotrail and TS ?
     
  14. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

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    In the mornings, there is one direct train in the peak between 7am and 8am which arrives into Waverley at 08:59.

    In the evenings the 17:18 arrives at Stirling at 18:05 and sits on Platform 6 for 13 minutes to allow the Aberdeen service to pass. The Aberdeen arrives at 18:09 The Aberdeen stops at DBL, so you can change trains if you want a 58 minute service or sit still for a 1h13m service.

    However, anyone who has regularly stood on Platform 2 at Stirling will not only be aware that it is one of the coldest platforms in the country, but the services are frequently late leaving Stirling, but make up time between Stirling & Dunblane.

    I'm not convinced that the 4 minute interchange is viable.
     
  15. snookertam

    snookertam Member

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    I think you'd struggle to get away with two trains an hour to Alloa throughout the day over the single line. Fine if it all runs to plan, but it'd end up pretty unreliable.

    Whats the Park of Keir stuff?
     
  16. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

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    Surely that’s not what is planned? We currently get 3 direct trains to Edinburgh between 7 and 8 am from DUNBLANE. Is that reduced to just one ?

    The17.18 evening service is too early for most. So from what you say it’s a change.

    I hope this is not the plan as that is worse than we have now by quite a margin.
     
  17. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

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    Why not let the train run on than sit in Stirling and let the ABERDEEN service pass it at DUNBLANE as they do now ? Confused !
     
  18. Stopper

    Stopper Member

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    The new timetable seems to be based around Stirling alone, and everyone else forgotten about. It is the busiest station on the SDA lines but busy stations such as Linlithgow, Croy, Dunblane etc not really seeing much improvement, and actually a reduction in some cases.

    One thing I have noticed about the new timetable is that there are a lot of peak time Dunblane services that sit around at Platform 6&9 at Stirling for considerable lengths of time. I only assume there are quicker connections for BoA and Dunblane passengers..
     
  19. 380gk

    380gk Member

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    Timetable not confirmed yet, so let’s not speculate until ScotRail have published their timetable.

    It’s well known sites like RTT are notoriously unreliable during the run up to timetable changes as things can change every few weeks (or every few days).

    I’d guess that printed timetables confirming changes should appear online soon.
     
  20. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

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    It'll just take you a moment to check online - the data has been published. The first direct train to Edinburgh, after 7am, leaves at 7:54 arriving at 08:59.

    Who knows? Are the units too long for the loop?

    In the old days, two different services could sit in the loop. One would draw right forward under the pedestrian bridge almost to the siding, another could then pull into Platform 3.
     
  21. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    True - we've certainly had some threads on here where people have jumped to conclusions about trains that haven't (yet) appeared - often late evening trains.

    Looking at the current timetable, the peak arrivals into Waverley from the Grahamston line are (after half six in the morning)...

    07:32 - ex Dunblane
    08:17 - ex Perth
    08:45 - ex Alloa
    09:05 - ex Dunblane
    (and then half hourly from Dunblane)

    06:42- ex Cumbernauld
    06:52 - ex Dunblane
    07:08- ex Cumbernauld
    07:29- ex Dunblane
    07:39- ex Cumbernauld
    08:05 - ex Perth
    08:14 - ex Cumbernauld
    08:41 - ex Alloa
    08:46 - ex Cumbernauld
    08:59 - ex Dunblane
    09:14 - ex Cumbernauld
    (and then half hourly from Dunblane and half hourly from Cumbernauld)

    The ones in bold being broadly equivalent to the current services. To me, the new timetable looks like an improvement (but much easier to focus on the small number of people inconvenienced by changes)
     
  22. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

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    Well I hope it’s not as above as that is reducing our options for EDINBURGH trains between 7 and 8 am direct from 3 to just 1. Guess we need to wait till it’s finalised and if it’s poorer then try to get it changed by complaining ? Tell me where in the publicity and hype of this Scotland’s best ever railway was there confirmation some towns would be less well served and potentially longer journey times if there are changes. ?
     
  23. WGWarburton

    WGWarburton New Member

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    Publicity and hype of this Scotland's best ever railway:

    https://www.tactran.gov.uk/cms-assets/2018 09 25 Item 5 ScotRail Presentation.pdf


    Note page nine states:

    Explain the benefits
    – A minority of journeys are poorer under the new timetable structure
     Dunblane express
    .....


    There are rays of hope- the stated intention to deliver change early, then improve; we get class 365s (mostly four-car) in 2018, then four-car 385s in 2019- I suppose that's an improvement? and more evening trains. There's a fair bit of capacity increase which will benefit those who board along the way (but see below); the initial timetable presumably has some slack built in, partly to accommodate parallel running of old rolling stock during the rollout and partly to improve reliability as the new services bed in, so one would hope things will improve in time...

    Also reasons for frustration- several of the other affected routes are identified as being improved next year, not Dunblane; As above, the capacity increase will make little difference to Dunblane/Waverley passengers; my impression is there will be fewer seats at peak times- I must be missing something here because it seems to me that the time when more capacity is actually needed is the peak commuter travel windows, yet with the number of services being so dramatically reduced, it appears that would reduce the number of seats available...

    The service from Stirling seems better- will we see a switch to more people driving there to access the service? The parking situation is pretty grim already, so that seems guaranteed to cause frustration. More cycling might be an option but the December change makes that unpalatable for most... and the access roads to Stirling are not the most cycle-friendly.

    Oh joy!
    W.
     
  24. Stopper

    Stopper Member

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    There’s no doubt that Class 385s (or whatever electric it is) will improve journey times, but it seems like there are many problems with the new timetable with Dunblane, Bridge of Allan, Polmont and Linlithgow all seeing reductions in peak times. I’m certainly going to be driving to work come December due to this timetable change.
     
  25. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

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    Yes . It seems that driving to the park and ride and tram will be my best optiuon

    Ironic that its Keith Brown, the transport secy that chose Abellio, that it is his constituency, that will be left holding the blame for landing his constituents with a markedly poorer service !! Not that he will care unless it costs him votes!
     
  26. Stopper

    Stopper Member

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    I just wonder how long this shambles of a timetable will last? How long will Dunblane and Bridge of Allan commuters have long layovers at Stirling platforms 6&9? How long will Dunblane only have 1tph between 7am and 8am? How long will Linlithgow and Polmont have no direct links to Stirling? How long will the fresh-air, waste of paths, white elephant Cumbernauld service last? How long will Linlithgow remain at a jam packed, much too little 4tph to Edinburgh service? How long will Newbridge Junction be able to cope with 12tph at peak times?

    So many questions that will need to be answered.
     
  27. David M

    David M Member

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    So you think he just sat down and went eeny meeny miney mo?
    The various tenders for the Scotrail franchise were assessed with a fine toothed comb, as required by the UK Government's approved tendering process, and the one that came out on top of the scorecard was Abellio.
    Brown was then pretty much told that Abellio were the successful bidder. What would you recommend he should have done?
    I have no vested interest in this but, from my perspective, Scotrail has improved under Abellio.
    The 385 introduction has been a mess - that's Hitachi's fault (and the seats are dire) - I frequently travel Edinburgh to Glasgow. Well done for getting the 365s which I like.
    The HSTs are something I (and I think the majority of travellers) will welcome - I frequently travel Edinburgh to Aberdeen, but their introduction has been a mess - that's Wabtec's fault.
    I used to live in Cumbernauld and would have welcomed a Cumbernauld to Edinburgh direct so I'm delighted such a service starts in December.
    I still visit Cumbernauld once or twice a year and will use the new service rather than getting off at Camelon and bussing to Cumbernauld.
    For someone's negative there will often be another persons positive.
    I genuinely can't imagine anyone sitting down and going "new timetable forthcoming, guys, who can we disadvantage?".
    Presumably you do imagine that.
     
  28. Mingulay

    Mingulay Member

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    No I don't , but the only message passengers have got during all this upheaval , which we endured for some time, was on the promise of better services , There was no mention that some would be worse . Do you accept that ?

    The fact he was the Minister that was in post at the time is ironic , by any measure. It may help get some timetable changes to get the Dunblane service at least as it is . Political embarrassment is useful at times.

    I was/am impressed by Hynes as a manager/decent man at face value , but from my use of the service over many years it is poorer than First, who were not great . I accept Abellio deserve credit for maintaining services during the Hitachi fiasco . But they still cant clean trains and the big hope of better services with new trains is now looking a bit hollow in reality for many commuters , not all. Over sold by politicians and the Alliance? . As for political responsibility. Well if the Ministers are there claiming credit if they feel its good for the cause , they can be on the hook for the failures too!
     
  29. gsnedders

    gsnedders Established Member

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    And note that had they not followed the defined selection process in the ITT they'd have been opening themselves up to legal action.
     
  30. Stopper

    Stopper Member

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    This new timetable might speed up journeys for Stirling & Larbert, bring a new service to Cumbernauld (no proof this is necessary) and double Falkirk Grahamston/Camelon frequencies to Edinburgh. But it also brings a lot of negatives to several stations such as Linlithgow, Polmont, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane which is very irritating.
     
  31. geoffk

    geoffk Member

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    I live in north west England and called in at Linlithgow station briefly while in Scotland in the summer. Presumably there are commuters from there, and from Polmont, to Stirling, who will now have to use the Cumbernauld train and change at Grahamston. This will not go down well.
     

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