Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[GLC]

The Class 334 units, of which there are 40, can cascade onto the South bank services - Cathcart/Neilston/Newton, Inverclyde, and hopefully, East Kilbride and Barrhead too, working alongside class 380s.

334s on the Cathcart circle have been looked at before, but they would overheat if running all day. I'm not sure if running out to EK and Barrhead intermittently would be enough to cool them down

EDIT: Scotrail12 beat me to it here is a source of the overheating claims though. Granted it's an old document now, but nothing significant has changed for 334s traction wise I believe https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/12937/replacement_of_314_units.pdf

 

[snookertam]

Class 380s have operated on the Cathcart routes on a daily basis for over a year now so I doubt there's an issue with overheating. Class 334 units were used as stand in units back in the day and again if there was any issue, I'd have thought there would be an operating restriction placed on them. Much of the North Clyde routes have a similar profile in terms of distance between stations so the units' traction motors will be getting worked hard there also.

The issue with class 380 (and class 385) units on the routes are mainly internal. No need for tables and the doors are too far apart. Aside from that they are fine in terms of acceleration. Class 318 and class 320 units are too cramped inside. Class 334s, especially if increasing the number of 6 car workings, would seem ideal. EDIT: I see the reference to the traction motors on the link above - maybe there is an issue with prolonged usage, but there has never been an operating restriction placed on them that prevented all day working on the Cathcart routes.

One issue with introducing the 334s onto the East Kilbride and Barrhead routes are whether conductors could work them. They are very much driver only units, which will not likely be introduced onto those lines without likely industrial action by the guards. Introducing driver only operation out of Glasgow Central any more than it already is would effectively see the end of the grade at Glasgow Central - there's no way it would be accepted without a considerable battle.

 

[edwin_m]

The 458s, which are similar to 334s, were built as 100mph units but re-geared for 75mph. This was something to do with the cooling fan being driven off the traction motor and not creating enough cooling at the speeds the 458s typically run at. As the 100mph capability was not needed, the re-gearing meant the motor and therefore the fan ran faster at normal running speed. Perhaps the 334s need something similar?

 

[alangla]

There were some 334s that were modified with guards door controls and NRN radios for operating to North Berwick, same with some 318s. Not sure if the 334s were ever actually used in service in that mode, but the 318s definitely were. Was easy to ID them with the NRN pod on the cab roof.
Thus far, all electrification in SPT land has included a swap to driver only trains, will be interesting to see if this one does

 

[route101]

There were some 334s that were modified with guards door controls and NRN radios for operating to North Berwick, same with some 318s. Not sure if the 334s were ever actually used in service in that mode, but the 318s definitely were. Was easy to ID them with the NRN pod on the cab roof.
Thus far, all electrification in SPT land has included a swap to driver only trains, will be interesting to see if this one does

Dont recall 334s operating to North Berwick, ccertainly the 318s did.

 

[route101]

Class 380s have operated on the Cathcart routes on a daily basis for over a year now so I doubt there's an issue with overheating. Class 334 units were used as stand in units back in the day and again if there was any issue, I'd have thought there would be an operating restriction placed on them. Much of the North Clyde routes have a similar profile in terms of distance between stations so the units' traction motors will be getting worked hard there also.

The issue with class 380 (and class 385) units on the routes are mainly internal. No need for tables and the doors are too far apart. Aside from that they are fine in terms of acceleration. Class 318 and class 320 units are too cramped inside. Class 334s, especially if increasing the number of 6 car workings, would seem ideal. EDIT: I see the reference to the traction motors on the link above - maybe there is an issue with prolonged usage, but there has never been an operating restriction placed on them that prevented all day working on the Cathcart routes.

One issue with introducing the 334s onto the East Kilbride and Barrhead routes are whether conductors could work them. They are very much driver only units, which will not likely be introduced onto those lines without likely industrial action by the guards. Introducing driver only operation out of Glasgow Central any more than it already is would effectively see the end of the grade at Glasgow Central - there's no way it would be accepted without a considerable battle.

380s have been operating the Cathcart Circle for least 3 years . Yep , 318s and 320s are cramped with 3 - 2 seating .

 

[route101]

334s on the Cathcart circle have been looked at before, but they would overheat if running all day. I'm not sure if running out to EK and Barrhead intermittently would be enough to cool them down

EDIT: Scotrail12 beat me to it here is a source of the overheating claims though. Granted it's an old document now, but nothing significant has changed for 334s traction wise I believe https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/12937/replacement_of_314_units.pdf

334s used to occaisionally operate the Cathcart Circle , Neilston etc .Dont think any drivers are trained for them now on them routes.

 

[youngac]

334s used to occaisionally operate the Cathcart Circle , Neilston etc .Dont think any drivers are trained for them now on them routes.

Some drivers must still be trained for the Circle and the Newton branch as 334s were used on the line during the Argyle Line blockade in summer 2018.

 

[route101]

Some drivers must still be trained for the Circle and the Newton branch as 334s were used on the line during the Argyle Line blockade in summer 2018.

I see , ive not seen a 334 at High level for long time now.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Some drivers must still be trained for the Circle and the Newton branch as 334s were used on the line during the Argyle Line blockade in summer 2018.

Pretty sure there was a booked service to Carstairs during that blockade which was 2x 334

 

[Roger B]

The Scottish Government makes the decisions and Network Rail is responsible for delivery. The decarbonisation action plan will be published later in the Spring and will set out how decarbonisation by 2035 will be achieved.

Thanks CLC

 

[yorkie]

Can we try to stick to Scotrail electrification updates on this thread please

Feel free to create a new thread (if there isn't one already) in the relevant area to discuss anything else (such as traction & rolling stock updates, timetable updates or speculative ideas).

Thanks

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

Hey does anyone know when perth (to edinburgh/glasgow) is due to be electrified)?

 

[LOM]

Hey does anyone know when perth (to edinburgh/glasgow) is due to be electrified)?

Dunblane to Perth is in early development now. Remodelling of Perth station layout first then electrification follows in CP7.

 

[clc]

Dunblane to Perth is in early development now. Remodelling of Perth station layout first then electrification follows in CP7.

Is that confirmed?

 

[CEN60]

Is that confirmed?

Early feasibility has been looked at for Perth Stn and out to Barnhill Signal Box - Dunblane to Perth looked at also including passive provision for electrification. Plus S&C rejig at Dunblane & new long loops at Carsebreck. 100mph running in places also. NR are moving onto the next phase at the moment.

 

[marks87]

Presumably post-Perth they would then just keep heading north?

I can't think of anything between Perth and Dundee that would cause problems, but not so sure beyond, e.g. Dock Street Tunnel.

 

[cyclebytrain]

Presumably post-Perth they would then just keep heading north?

I can't think of anything between Perth and Dundee that would cause problems, but not so sure beyond, e.g. Dock Street Tunnel.

Presumably Dundee to Aberdeen would also be used by Azumas coming from Fife as well as ScotRail services via Perth. Now that I think about it, that would mean that those wires could be used even before Perth was done; which raises the obvious question - what stage (if any) is planning for wiring Dundee to Aberdeen at?

 

[gingertom]

Presumably post-Perth they would then just keep heading north?

I can't think of anything between Perth and Dundee that would cause problems, but not so sure beyond, e.g. Dock Street Tunnel.

only the Tay viaduct on the exit from Perth. There has been talk of it being doubled, which would obviously need doing before the wires go up. The formation between the station and the river was double at one time, not sure about the viaduct proper.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Current Tay viaduct is single track with a pedestrian walkway. It was never double, although the timber arched viaduct it replaced was.

 

[47271]

Early feasibility has been looked at for Perth Stn and out to Barnhill Signal Box - Dunblane to Perth looked at also including passive provision for electrification. Plus S&C rejig at Dunblane & new long loops at Carsebreck. 100mph running in places also. NR are moving onto the next phase at the moment.

Given that Stirling-Perth is the old Caledonian main line, built to exactly the same standards as the northern West Coast, 100mph here and there is the least I'd hope for. The more that route can be speeded up and have its capacity increased the less need we'll have for the woeful Ladybank-Perth route.

Noone should underestimate the time and disruption caused by Perth remodelling and electrification (and the complete rebuilding of the bomb site of a station), not least the work that'll need to be done to Moncrieffe Tunnel.

 

[CEN60]

Given that Stirling-Perth is the old Caledonian main line, built to exactly the same standards as the northern West Coast, 100mph here and there is the least I'd hope for. The more that route can be speeded up and have its capacity increased the less need we'll have for the woeful Ladybank-Perth route.

Noone should underestimate the time and disruption caused by Perth remodelling and electrification (and the complete rebuilding of the bomb site of a station), not least the work that'll need to be done to Moncrieffe Tunnel.

It was looked at for higher than 100 also! Moncreiffe Tunnel is perhaps not as bad an issue as you might think - signal sighting because of the tunnel is a problem from what i understand/ Big Ticket item is Earn Viaduct and the restrictions it has imposed on it!

 

[JohnR]

Given that Stirling-Perth is the old Caledonian main line, built to exactly the same standards as the northern West Coast, 100mph here and there is the least I'd hope for. The more that route can be speeded up and have its capacity increased the less need we'll have for the woeful Ladybank-Perth route.

Noone should underestimate the time and disruption caused by Perth remodelling and electrification (and the complete rebuilding of the bomb site of a station), not least the work that'll need to be done to Moncrieffe Tunnel.

There are already sections of it at 100mph. Its fairly straight and level, so I dont see why it couldnt be faster. Same with long bits of the [Perth]-Barnhill-Dundee stretch

 

[gsnedders]

Given that Stirling-Perth is the old Caledonian main line, built to exactly the same standards as the northern West Coast, 100mph here and there is the least I'd hope for. The more that route can be speeded up and have its capacity increased the less need we'll have for the woeful Ladybank-Perth route.

Noone should underestimate the time and disruption caused by Perth remodelling and electrification (and the complete rebuilding of the bomb site of a station), not least the work that'll need to be done to Moncrieffe Tunnel.

Question will be whether it's worth increasing it beyond 100mph, especially when ScotRail's safety-case is based on 100mph maximum and they're unlikely to get that much in way of gains from >100mph running on most of the network.

 

[gingertom]

Question will be whether it's worth increasing it beyond 100mph, especially when ScotRail's safety-case is based on 100mph maximum and they're unlikely to get that much in way of gains from >100mph running on most of the network.

quite so. Going from 100 to 125mph only gains you 6 seconds per mile, 10 miles running at the higher speed needed for 1 minute. There aren't many stretches of line where such higher speed running could gain significant journey time savings, although every little helps.

 

[Brissle Girl]

quite so. Going from 100 to 125mph only gains you 6 seconds per mile, 10 miles running at the higher speed needed for 1 minute. There aren't many stretches of line where such higher speed running could gain significant journey time savings, although every little helps.

7.2 secs in fact (a mile takes 36 secs at 100mph and 30 secs at 120mph).

But entirely agree with the sentiment that over relatively short distances it’s not worth it and the time saving can probably be more economically achieved by infrastructure tweaks such as increasing turn out speeds or modest line speeds at lower speeds.

 

[edwin_m]

Higher speeds also worsen capacity problems because the fastest trains currently can usually benefit, but due to station stops or using different rolling stock the slower trains often can't or at least don't benefit so much. So there is more capacity penalty from running a mixture of fast and slow trains.

 

[hwl]

Higher speeds also worsen capacity problems because the fastest trains currently can usually benefit, but due to station stops or using different rolling stock the slower trains often can't or at least don't benefit so much. So there is more capacity penalty from running a mixture of fast and slow trains.

EMUs replacing DMUs on stopping services is probably the biggest impact on overall performance.

 

[Southsider]

Tree cutting still happening on the EK line overnight despite the lockdown. Some more technical looking guys out and about today, one in a Network Rail van and the others in contractor’s vans, never noticed the name though.

 

[Class 170101]

The best way to improve journey times has been said many times before inclusing below, improve your minimum speeds not your maximum speeds.

But entirely agree with the sentiment that over relatively short distances it’s not worth it and the time saving can probably be more economically achieved by infrastructure tweaks such as increasing turn out speeds or modest line speeds at lower speeds.