• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Liam_Hendry

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2012
Messages
93
Location
Perth, Scotland NOT Australia !
See when Cross Rail is complete, do you think 357s are an option for EG via Falkirk High ?? (That is if the new trains will run Fenchurch St). Even though it will need refurbishment to add better seats and 2-2 configuration and of course 1st class, it's so similar to the 170 that it would only require a little staff training (To those currently working with Scotrail) and it would provide an extra carriage.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

clc

Established Member
Joined
31 Oct 2011
Messages
1,302
Re Edinburgh South Suburban line, I notice that the ORR's draft determination does not include this scheme in it's assumed level of expenditure due to it not being required by the Scottish HLOS. Is that a significant blow to it's chances of going ahead?
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,414
Location
Salt & Vinegar
See when Cross Rail is complete, do you think 357s are an option for EG via Falkirk High ?? (That is if the new trains will run Fenchurch St). Even though it will need refurbishment to add better seats and 2-2 configuration and of course 1st class, it's so similar to the 170 that it would only require a little staff training (To those currently working with Scotrail) and it would provide an extra carriage.

Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk High will almost certainly be run using a follow on order of 380s (or possibly something between a 380 and a Desiro City).

Having said earlier that the thread isn't about politics I can guarantee that Politics is one big reason that the flagship Scottish intercity route won't be run using second hand English trains. Can you imagine the headline in the Scotsman!:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Re Edinburgh South Suburban line, I notice that the ORR's draft determination does not include this scheme in it's assumed level of expenditure due to it not being required by the Scottish HLOS. Is that a significant blow to it's chances of going ahead?

Probably. I believe there are some issues around cross border freight issues in the way the HLOSs were written. The Scottish one assumes cross border issues are dealt with in the England & Wales one while the England & Wales one doesn't cover any infrastructure upgrades required in Scotland for cross border freight.

I suspect that's why Carstairs junction remodelling is also excluded. I had heard about possible funding issues for the lengthening of the freight loop on the WCML (near Beattock?) that suffers from the same problem of not being listed in the Scottish HLOS but being required to solve problems down south.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,710
This is getting a long way off topic but the CTA operated before either country was in Europe. Or look at the Nordic Passport Union which operates fine with 3 EU Members, 2 EEA members and 1 non member (Faeroes). That's even assuming EU membership is not forthcoming which would seem very unlikely

The French and Spanish both have every reason to deny Scotland automatic membership with the British opt outs and no reason to grant it. (They have their own seperatists and they do not wish to set a precedent). It is likely they would be able to bring pretty much everyone else around to their point of view by bullying or offering concessions on things that concern the other member states more.

I have every reason to believe they would be willing to let Scotland join in its own right in an accelerated process, but they would not be willing to let it retain the opt outs Britain has won.

All new member states are required to join Schengen and to adopt the Euro. The latter is a significant economic issue for economic integration in the British Isles but the former is a massive problem.

Ireland and Britain are able to maintain the CTA because they joined the Euro before the Schengen agreement was drafted and thus won an opt out from any requirement to join.
Being in the CTA and Schengen is mutually incompatible for Scotland since the UK will never join it and Ireland would never dare leave the CTA because of the damage to its trade.

So either Scotland remains outside the EU or it puts border controls of a certain required standard (see the French border controls as an example of the minimum standard required) on its borders with England.
 
Last edited:

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,414
Location
Salt & Vinegar
The French and Spanish both have every reason to deny Scotland automatic membership with the British opt outs and no reason to grant it. (They have their own seperatists and they do not wish to set a precedent). It is likely they would be able to bring pretty much everyone else around to their point of view by bullying or offering concessions on things that concern the other member states more.

I have every reason to believe they would be willing to let Scotland join in its own right in an accelerated process, but they would not be willing to let it retain the opt outs Britain has won.

All new member states are required to join Schengen and to adopt the Euro. The latter is a significant economic issue for economic integration in the British Isles but the former is a massive problem.

Ireland and Britain are able to maintain the CTA because they joined the Euro before the Schengen agreement was drafted and thus won an opt out from any requirement to join.
Being in the CTA and Schengen is mutually incompatible for Scotland since the UK will never join it and Ireland would never dare leave the CTA because of the damage to its trade.

So either Scotland remains outside the EU or it puts border controls of a certain required standard (see the French border controls as an example of the minimum standard required) on its borders with England.

Utter nonsense I'm afraid. Sweden is "required" to join the Euro and has no opt out but no one can force them to join ERM (a prerequisite to joining the Euro) so they have happily maintained the Krone for nearly 20 years without anyone forcing them to join the Euro.

Equally Cyprus is "required" to join Schengen but chooses not to as it would be inconvenient in relation to border crossings with Northern Cyprus. (an island which has two entities not in Schengen so they choose to remain outside, does that ring any bells?)

And that is assuming that Scotland cannot negotiate a new opt out.

I suspect the other countries' main concerns would be removing the financial opt outs. No one is going to force Scotland to join the Euro or Schengen out of spite and even if they were mad enough to do so there are countries who have informal opt outs at the moment so we can see how Scotland could stay out unofficially.

As I say independence probably won't happen and I don't personally support it but these sort of nonsensical Westminster scare tactic debating points add nothing to the real discussion.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,710
Utter nonsense I'm afraid. Sweden is "required" to join the Euro and has no opt out but no one can force them to join ERM (a prerequisite to joining the Euro) so they have happily maintained the Krone for nearly 20 years without anyone forcing them to join the Euro.

This was an oversight in its specific treaty of Accession to the Union.
That mistake has not been repeated since and will never be repeated again.

All later-joining members are bound to join ERM-II and thus the Euro.

Equally Cyprus is "required" to join Schengen but chooses not to as it would be inconvenient in relation to border crossings with Northern Cyprus. (an island which has two entities not in Schengen so they choose to remain outside, does that ring any bells?)

The Cypriot situation is rather unlike any reasonable situation that could arise in the United Kingdom.
The Cypriot exception is a result of the whole truce-in-an-effective-civil war thing, complete with a UN peacekeeping force.
Cyprus claims the entire island as its territory and as such joining Schengen would cause a diplomatic incident with the Turks who are the only country to recognise the other state on the island.

And that is assuming that Scotland cannot negotiate a new opt out.

The Scottish Government has absolutely no leverage to gain an opt out.
The French and Spanish governments use the argument that any seperatist state would have to start at square one against their own seccessionists (especially the Basques and Catalans).
Giving Scotland any ground at all would undermine that argument.

I suspect the other countries' main concerns would be removing the financial opt outs. No one is going to force Scotland to join the Euro or Schengen out of spite and even if they were mad enough to do so there are countries who have informal opt outs at the moment so we can see how Scotland could stay out unofficially.

Those informal opt outs are all the result of specific circumstances that the EU Commission is wise to and will not allow to occur again.
Unless you suggest that there will have to be a UN police truce-line in the Scottish Borders, complete with neither state recognising the other?

As I say independence probably won't happen and I don't personally support it but these sort of nonsensical Westminster scare tactic debating points add nothing to the real discussion.

The problem is that the Scottish Nationalists just rant and rant and expect that all these problems will magically solve themselves in ways that they want simply because they want them to.
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,414
Location
Salt & Vinegar
This was an oversight in its specific treaty of Accession to the Union.
That mistake has not been repeated since and will never be repeated again.

All later-joining members are bound to join ERM-II and thus the Euro.



The Cypriot situation is rather unlike any reasonable situation that could arise in the United Kingdom.
The Cypriot exception is a result of the whole truce-in-an-effective-civil war thing, complete with a UN peacekeeping force.
Cyprus claims the entire island as its territory and as such joining Schengen would cause a diplomatic incident with the Turks who are the only country to recognise the other state on the island.



The Scottish Government has absolutely no leverage to gain an opt out.
The French and Spanish governments use the argument that any seperatist state would have to start at square one against their own seccessionists (especially the Basques and Catalans).
Giving Scotland any ground at all would undermine that argument.



Those informal opt outs are all the result of specific circumstances that the EU Commission is wise to and will not allow to occur again.
Unless you suggest that there will have to be a UN police truce-line in the Scottish Borders, complete with neither state recognising the other?



The problem is that the Scottish Nationalists just rant and rant and expect that all these problems will magically solve themselves in ways that they want simply because they want them to.

Well you obviously believe everything the no campaign says is Gospel Truth which is fair enough but in the real world countries don't force each other to join currencies and border zones out of spite. Realpolitik rules and deals would be done.

It still has nothing to do with this thread. Please can a mod move all this nonsense about independence to the general discussion area.
 

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
Until the result of next year's referendum is known everything is nothing more than speculation.
I'll leave aside any referendum on leaving Europe for later, as such it only kicks in north of the border in the event of a NO vote in Scotland.
A YES vote would make pointless as far as Scotland is concerned.
 

SkinnyDave

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2012
Messages
1,242
HST Ed
Project fear kept bringing this Euro currency argument up it has been constantly dismissed by think tanks, policy makers, academics alike.
Scotland will not be forced to join the Euro currency! It will be the pound they adopt.
I'd be more worried in London about the EU because without Oil revenues coming in to coffers and Merkel desperate to thump the financial sector in London (the only game left in town) The country will be stuffed, vote to leave EU and where will that leave England?

That has more uncertainty than Scotland's position in EU
 

clc

Established Member
Joined
31 Oct 2011
Messages
1,302
Well you obviously believe everything the no campaign says is Gospel Truth which is fair enough but in the real world countries don't force each other to join currencies and border zones out of spite. Realpolitik rules and deals would be done.

It still has nothing to do with this thread. Please can a mod move all this nonsense about independence to the general discussion area.


Seconded.
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
Thought I'd post this presentation from Jacobs about EGIP de-scoping. Interesting to see the possibility of "The Flyer", an additional 5th morning peak service with sub 40 minute journey time:

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...obs_Presentation_May_2012_for_publication.pdf

Really good to see the proposed layouts.

There are still too many 6-car only platforms though.

If a significant amount of engineering work is to be done, Surely it would be better to engage in some form of reconfiguration/demolition that would bring the thunderbird siding(?) and platform one into full length as 8-car platforms?
 

matchmaker

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
1,507
Location
Central Scotland
Really good to see the proposed layouts.

There are still too many 6-car only platforms though.

If a significant amount of engineering work is to be done, Surely it would be better to engage in some form of reconfiguration/demolition that would bring the thunderbird siding(?) and platform one into full length as 8-car platforms?

No Thunderbird siding at GQS! I note that platform 1 on the plan is showing as having capacity for a 4 car 170....I see a bit of a flaw in that idea! :roll:
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
No Thunderbird siding at GQS! I note that platform 1 on the plan is showing as having capacity for a 4 car 170....I see a bit of a flaw in that idea! :roll:

Hmm... Former banking engine siding?

The siding next to platform 1?

I suppose it would also take a 4-car Voyager or 4-car 158.
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,414
Location
Salt & Vinegar
Really good to see the proposed layouts.

There are still too many 6-car only platforms though.

If a significant amount of engineering work is to be done, Surely it would be better to engage in some form of reconfiguration/demolition that would bring the thunderbird siding(?) and platform one into full length as 8-car platforms?

I believe the planned extensions are all at the concourse end. To get 8 car platforms in 1-4 you'd need to start changing the station throat and the tunnels which could get very expensive.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,652
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Yes NR in Scotland is funded and specified by Transport Scotland (an agency of the Scottish Government.
Network Rail produce a separate HLOS for Scotland each control period. Cross border services are specified by DfT in London with input from Scotland (except the sleeper which is the other way round).
Post independence a decision would have to be made whether to maintain the current structure, separate out Network Rail Scotland or do something else (vertical integration?).

Once the current CP5 planning round is complete in January, NR's funding is secured for 2014-19 across the UK, for whatever projects are then agreed.
Possible independence does not alter this, until a Scottish Government gets control of the rail system.
This would require an Act of Parliament or a Treaty and is not achieved in 5 minutes.
The whole set of Scottish ORR/NR/franchising issues would have to be agreed.
The Scotrail franchise will be relet using the current process in March 2015.
I would say that 2019 (ie start of CP6) would be the first opportunity to change the way the railway system works in Scotland (and any cross-border issues).
But it might not happen anyway...
 
Last edited:

clc

Established Member
Joined
31 Oct 2011
Messages
1,302
It's believed that three 8-car platforms will be sufficient for 4tph frequency.

There's an analysis of all 7 platforms (p 4-19) and of Queen Street's ability to accommodate longer trains (p 4-28) in here: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk.../Jacobs_Report_Sept_18_without_Appendices.pdf

The majority of 8 car services will be focused either side of an island on Platforms 5 and 6. This will allow the potential of branding and targeted advertising to be focused on these platforms.
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
I believe the planned extensions are all at the concourse end. To get 8 car platforms in 1-4 you'd need to start changing the station throat and the tunnels which could get very expensive.

How long a train could fit in platform 0 & 1 if the existing staff offices were demolished and track extended to same point as Platform 2-7

queen_street_plan01.jpg
 
Last edited:

Chris125

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
3,076
See when Cross Rail is complete, do you think 357s are an option for EG via Falkirk High ?? (That is if the new trains will run Fenchurch St).

Apologies if i'm misunderstanding you, but the Crossrail service on the GEML won't be displacing any 357's as they work the LTS line out of Fenchurch St.

Chris
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,414
Location
Salt & Vinegar
How long a train could fit in platform 0 & 1 if the existing staff offices were demolished and track extended to same point as Platform 2-7

Looking at that Jacobs report it seems that they have to demolish the staff accommodation even to accommodate 4 coach trains in Platform 1. Looking at it they could probably make it a 6 coach platform but are choosing to use he space for extra circulation space and as the location of the new pedestrian overbridge (in the style of Kings Cross).

Probably a reasonable compromise as it seems unlikely the Maryhill line will justify more than 4 coach trains anytime soon.
 

St Rollox

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
Queen Street goods yard closed when I was a kid, if not before. I'm 55!

Vaguely remember the staff rooms/red star/BT Police building getting built.
Sure i saw the track being lifted from the goods yard.
On the map shown it looks like a church and a (PH) public house are on every corner.
Think the only two pubs left are those on Dundas St.
 

66C

Member
Joined
8 Sep 2013
Messages
76
In the early days of the present Queen Street HL redesign there was some talk of providing a platform 8 and possibly 9 with a line placed through the Telecom and PO/Red Star buildings into the former goods depot. I think it was dropped as it was considered seven platforms were sufficient to handle the double track approach.

Looking up from the low level there is a considerable amount of steelwork bridging over the tunnel at the car park end. I assume this was carrying the sidings in the former goods yard.

Extending platform 1 and possibly 0 through the train crew depot and station offices would also require building a bridge over the low level. Although outside the train shed I imagine would be difficult and expensive to build in the confined space available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Was platform 1 shortened when the train crew accommodation was built???
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
It's believed that three 8-car platforms will be sufficient for 4tph frequency..

Really, turaround should be possible to be fast enough that three platforms is vastly more than enough...
 

66C

Member
Joined
8 Sep 2013
Messages
76
Just a few observations.

I understand Cowlairs box was closing last weekend with control transferring to Edinburgh.

Sidings and associated pointwork were coming out at Stirling Middle.

A lightweight signalling structure was erected at the south end of Stirling station after contractors ran into trouble when dug into a cattle creep while preparing the original foundations for the original structure.

Turnouts are being prepared alongside the line at Sighthill Junction ready to be lifted in when the junction is doubled.

Track work at the re-doubled Newton junction appears to be finished although a section of the overhead wiring has still to be completed and signalling commissioned.

Carillion appear to be pressing ahead with the Cumbernauld Electrification most of the foundation piles seem to be in the ground many of the uprights in place none of the cantilever masts approaching the signals as yet though.

No sign of a start on the R&C Electrification yet.
 

matchmaker

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
1,507
Location
Central Scotland
Just a few observations.

I understand Cowlairs box was closing last weekend with control transferring to Edinburgh.

Sidings and associated pointwork were coming out at Stirling Middle.

A lightweight signalling structure was erected at the south end of Stirling station after contractors ran into trouble when dug into a cattle creep while preparing the original foundations for the original structure.

Lightweight is the word - it has a noticeable sag in the middle!
 

66C

Member
Joined
8 Sep 2013
Messages
76
And how do you get maintenance access once the wires are up??
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top