Scottish Electrification.

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by route:oxford, 25 Oct 2011.

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  1. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

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    Was thinking about this earlier today...

    There are some routes that are very unlikely ever to be worthwhile elecrifying. Far North Line & Kyle line for example.

    But when it comes to the WHL, it's already electrified as far as the Helensburgh Junction. Would there be any sense in electrifying the route as far as Oban, with a powerful EMU hauling a DMU as far as Crianlarich for the Mallaig run?

    I then got to thinkng about a posting earlier this week about DMUs hauling Mk3s...

    Could a suitably powerful emu, built from the start with an appropriate hotel supply and brake connection haul the Mk3 sleeper stock onwards from the central belt to Aberdeen and Inverness (should both cities eventually be wired up of course)?
     
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  3. marks87

    marks87 Established Member

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    Why would an EMU be needed to haul the sleeper to Aberdeen and Inverness if both are wired? Just use whatever type of locomotive does the EUS-EDB leg (whether that be a 90, or something newer if/when the wires finally go up in this part of the world).
     
  4. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Well you would still need two extra locomotives because IIRC the Class 90 then proceeds to Glasgow with that portion of the sleeper.
    (One for EDB-Ladybank-Aberdeen and the other for Ladybank Inverness)
     
  5. matchmaker

    matchmaker Member

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    What has Ladybank to do with it? The Highland sleeper is 90 hauled to Edinburgh where it splits into Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William portions, all 67 hauled.

    The Aberdeen portion may pass through Ladybank, but that's all!

    The Lowland sleeper is 90 hauled the whole way to Glasgow.
     
  6. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Well if you are electrifying to Inverness after Aberdeen the cheapest route would be via Ladybank and Perth.
     
  7. marks87

    marks87 Established Member

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    No, the Lowland Sleeper (barring diversions) goes up the WCML and splits at Carstairs, with the 90 that brought up the Highland Sleeper going back to pick up the Edinburgh portion.

    But either way, my point related to designing an EMU that's powerful enough to drag the sleeper twice a day. It would undoubtedly be easier (and probably cheaper) to simply use an electric loco.
     
  8. MacCookie

    MacCookie Member

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    No actually. The 90 off 1S25 stables in Waverley upon arrival. A separate loco is used for Carstairs - Edinburgh - Polmadie, booked a 90 but a 67 wouldn't be unusual.

    Ewan
     
  9. marks87

    marks87 Established Member

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    Fair enough; I was recalling a thread I read that tallied up the number of locomotives needed for the sleeper in a night.

    But I do think the main point is still being lost somewhat.
     
  10. MacCookie

    MacCookie Member

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    Why not route the sleeper via Dunblane as it currently does? Seems probable that Dunblane to Dundee would be electrified before Perth to Inverness (and in fact that's what STPR proposed).

    Ewan
     
  11. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Quite- Dunblane is going to be electrified well before any wires appear in Fife
     
  12. MacCookie

    MacCookie Member

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    Ten locos last night:
    67004
    67009
    67024
    90018
    90019
    90020
    90028
    90029
    90036
    92042

    Ewan
     
  13. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Wait, 92042?

    Where does that haul the sleeper?
     
  14. marks87

    marks87 Established Member

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    At risk of making my second mistake of the day, I suspect it will have been doing the ECS from either GLC or EDB to Polmadie (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf23yn-bSWE).
     
  15. MacCookie

    MacCookie Member

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    Was reported on scot-rail.co.uk as working 5M11 Polmadie - Glasgow Central last night and I'm fairly certain that it did 5S26 Glasgow Central - Polmadie this morning. 5M11 tends to be whatever is spare on Mossend (a 66 or 67 normally, but I've seen plenty of 37s and 60s, and 92s often make an appearance). 5S26 is a 92 fairly regularly these days.

    One of the 90s listed above only did ECS moves as well between Wembley and Euston (with one of the ones that worked to/from Scotland also being utilised before/after the cross-border working).
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    The loco that does 1B26 Carstairs - Edinburgh then works 5B26 Edinburgh - Polmadie ECS. Same in the opposite direction. 90029 this morning if it makes any difference.

    Ewan
     
  16. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

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    If you're eventually going to have something newer, why not have a powerful EMU that can also be used during the day to provide regular passenger services rather than sit idle or make wasteful light-engine movements?

    Simply comparing the track access charges for an electric loco with that of an EMU, would suggest you could operate a powerful 3 car EMU for the same access charges as a loco.


    Any comments about electrifiying as far as Oban?
     
  17. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Can anyone confirm what is definitely going ahead in terms of Scottish Electrification?

    Edinburgh - Falkirk High - Queen Street, plus the triangle to Dunblane, AIUI, but what else is 100%? I've seen various mentions of Whifflet/ Paisley Canal/ East Kilbridge, but its hard to separate the rumour from facts...

    If you can't justify electrification of Cardiff - Swansea (up to three services an hour) then I'd be amazed if they could justify electrification of Helensburgh - Oban (three services a day)...

    I know that the Sleeper is a bit of a complicated luxury, in railway terms, but didn't realise that *this* many locos were needed in one night. Even if some of them were only used on short (ish) bits, thats a lot of staff involved, a lot of complication.
     
  18. MacCookie

    MacCookie Member

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    The only electrification with funding is EGIP.

    The Glasgow Suburban electrification is detailed in the RUS Gen2 and has passed GRIP3.

    STPR details what's next (Fife, Aberdeen, Inverness) but I doubt that any work has been done on those since STPR was published.

    Ewan
     
  19. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Thanks Ewan, I'll look into that RUS :)
     
  20. kylemore

    kylemore Member

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    If we were a sensible country like say Der Schweiz the west highland lines would have been electrified by the 1930s using cheap hydro power available from the mountains surrounding the lines.
    There would be trains every two hours or so on both the Oban and Fort William sections, and there would be extensive sidings all along the route to load virtually all of the timber produced in the area.
    What an impossible lovely dream for us, a prosaic everyday reality for the Swiss!
    Unfortunately we're not a sensible country when it comes transport (or just about anything else to be honest!)
     
  21. JamieFCC

    JamieFCC Member

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    First lines to be electrified: egip Edinburgh to Glasgow via falkirk also edin/glas to dunblane and alloa, whifflet and cumbernauld lines will be electrified and connected to the argyle line. Glasgow to east kilbride and barrhead is the next step then the paisley canal route. Fife circle lines and Aberdeen line from glasgow and Edinburgh will be electrified. Inverness line is hoped to be electrified but scotrail has no permission. Also by 2020 the shorts part of the Glasgow central line will be electrified and the Motherwell to Cumbernauld line will be wired, finally the maryhill line will be wired.
     
  22. sdrennan

    sdrennan Member

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    I asked a similar question with regards to Paisley Canal line. The reply was that this line was being completed early (End 2012??) as it is only a short infill from Corkerhill TMD. I know they have already been doing planning and tree/vegetation clearance
     
  23. PaulLothian

    PaulLothian Member

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    It has just been brought to my attention that the Transport Scotland Rail 2014 Consultation includes the possibility of closure of some stations (mostly in Glasgow) if there is another station within one mile. List of possibles is here - http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...ons/rail-2014-scottish-railway-stations-dec11

    Does decision-making in relation to this possible strategy have any knock-on effect on electrification?
     
  24. Waverley125

    Waverley125 Member

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    the obvious electrifications to me would be:

    Edinburgh-Falkirk High-Glasgow
    Edinburgh-Shotts-Glasgow
    Ayr-Stranraer
    Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Carlisle
    Edinburgh-Dundee-Aberdeen
    Edinburgh-Ladybank-Perth-Inverness
    Edinburgh-Falkirk Grahamston-Stirling-Perth-Inverness
    Glasgow-East Kilbride
    Glasgow-Falkirk Grahamston
    Croy-Larbert (fill-in between Glasgow-Edinburgh and Glasgow-Falkirk Grahamston)
    Fife Circle
     
  25. JamieFCC

    JamieFCC Member

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    Correct apart from kilmarnock line is only being wired up until Barrhead. And ayr to stranger isn't being wired.
     
  26. matchmaker

    matchmaker Member

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    We'll be lucky if we have any trains at all to Stranraer in a few years, never mind electric ones!
     
  27. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Obvious? A fifty mile line with a handful of services a day (average load of eleven passengers on each Stranraer service IIRC?)? When the ferry traffic has disappeared?

    This is basically a list of "every railway line in Scotland apart from the Far North/ Kyle/ West Highland, not an "obvious" list, sorry.
     
  28. route101

    route101 Established Member

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    I wonder what stock will be used on East Kilbride services . Anyone know when work starts on Electrification ou of Queen St?
     
  29. CarterUSM

    CarterUSM Established Member

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    23 metre EMU's would be ideal, nothing less would be spacious enough peak time anyway.
     
  30. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    So a follow on order of 380s then...
     
  31. TimSYoung40145

    TimSYoung40145 Established Member

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    I would like to see Rutherglen East Jn-Whifflet wired plus the north spur.

    This could provide both ScotRail & Virgin Trains (or whoever holds the franchise) an alternative electrified link towards Falkirk Grahamston & Motherwell. I think the current Edinburgh-Glasgow Queen Street should alternate with 2tph to Glasgow Central via Cumbernauld.

    Please make constructive comments.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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