Scottish Electrification.

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route:oxford

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Was thinking about this earlier today...

There are some routes that are very unlikely ever to be worthwhile elecrifying. Far North Line & Kyle line for example.

But when it comes to the WHL, it's already electrified as far as the Helensburgh Junction. Would there be any sense in electrifying the route as far as Oban, with a powerful EMU hauling a DMU as far as Crianlarich for the Mallaig run?

I then got to thinkng about a posting earlier this week about DMUs hauling Mk3s...

Could a suitably powerful emu, built from the start with an appropriate hotel supply and brake connection haul the Mk3 sleeper stock onwards from the central belt to Aberdeen and Inverness (should both cities eventually be wired up of course)?
 
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marks87

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Why would an EMU be needed to haul the sleeper to Aberdeen and Inverness if both are wired? Just use whatever type of locomotive does the EUS-EDB leg (whether that be a 90, or something newer if/when the wires finally go up in this part of the world).
 

HSTEd

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Well you would still need two extra locomotives because IIRC the Class 90 then proceeds to Glasgow with that portion of the sleeper.
(One for EDB-Ladybank-Aberdeen and the other for Ladybank Inverness)
 

matchmaker

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Well you would still need two extra locomotives because IIRC the Class 90 then proceeds to Glasgow with that portion of the sleeper.
(One for EDB-Ladybank-Aberdeen and the other for Ladybank Inverness)
What has Ladybank to do with it? The Highland sleeper is 90 hauled to Edinburgh where it splits into Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William portions, all 67 hauled.

The Aberdeen portion may pass through Ladybank, but that's all!

The Lowland sleeper is 90 hauled the whole way to Glasgow.
 

HSTEd

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Well if you are electrifying to Inverness after Aberdeen the cheapest route would be via Ladybank and Perth.
 

marks87

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Well you would still need two extra locomotives because IIRC the Class 90 then proceeds to Glasgow with that portion of the sleeper.
No, the Lowland Sleeper (barring diversions) goes up the WCML and splits at Carstairs, with the 90 that brought up the Highland Sleeper going back to pick up the Edinburgh portion.

But either way, my point related to designing an EMU that's powerful enough to drag the sleeper twice a day. It would undoubtedly be easier (and probably cheaper) to simply use an electric loco.
 

MacCookie

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No, the Lowland Sleeper (barring diversions) goes up the WCML and splits at Carstairs, with the 90 that brought up the Highland Sleeper going back to pick up the Edinburgh portion.
No actually. The 90 off 1S25 stables in Waverley upon arrival. A separate loco is used for Carstairs - Edinburgh - Polmadie, booked a 90 but a 67 wouldn't be unusual.

Ewan
 

marks87

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No actually. The 90 off 1S25 stables in Waverley upon arrival. A separate loco is used for Carstairs - Edinburgh - Polmadie, booked a 90 but a 67 wouldn't be unusual.
Fair enough; I was recalling a thread I read that tallied up the number of locomotives needed for the sleeper in a night.

But I do think the main point is still being lost somewhat.
 

MacCookie

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Well if you are electrifying to Inverness after Aberdeen the cheapest route would be via Ladybank and Perth.
Why not route the sleeper via Dunblane as it currently does? Seems probable that Dunblane to Dundee would be electrified before Perth to Inverness (and in fact that's what STPR proposed).

Ewan
 

MacCookie

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Wait, 92042?

Where does that haul the sleeper?
Was reported on scot-rail.co.uk as working 5M11 Polmadie - Glasgow Central last night and I'm fairly certain that it did 5S26 Glasgow Central - Polmadie this morning. 5M11 tends to be whatever is spare on Mossend (a 66 or 67 normally, but I've seen plenty of 37s and 60s, and 92s often make an appearance). 5S26 is a 92 fairly regularly these days.

One of the 90s listed above only did ECS moves as well between Wembley and Euston (with one of the ones that worked to/from Scotland also being utilised before/after the cross-border working).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
At risk of making my second mistake of the day, I suspect it will have been doing the ECS from either GLC or EDB to Polmadie (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf23yn-bSWE).
The loco that does 1B26 Carstairs - Edinburgh then works 5B26 Edinburgh - Polmadie ECS. Same in the opposite direction. 90029 this morning if it makes any difference.

Ewan
 

route:oxford

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Why would an EMU be needed to haul the sleeper to Aberdeen and Inverness if both are wired? Just use whatever type of locomotive does the EUS-EDB leg (whether that be a 90, or something newer if/when the wires finally go up in this part of the world).
If you're eventually going to have something newer, why not have a powerful EMU that can also be used during the day to provide regular passenger services rather than sit idle or make wasteful light-engine movements?

Simply comparing the track access charges for an electric loco with that of an EMU, would suggest you could operate a powerful 3 car EMU for the same access charges as a loco.


Any comments about electrifiying as far as Oban?
 

tbtc

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Can anyone confirm what is definitely going ahead in terms of Scottish Electrification?

Edinburgh - Falkirk High - Queen Street, plus the triangle to Dunblane, AIUI, but what else is 100%? I've seen various mentions of Whifflet/ Paisley Canal/ East Kilbridge, but its hard to separate the rumour from facts...

Was thinking about this earlier today...

There are some routes that are very unlikely ever to be worthwhile elecrifying. Far North Line & Kyle line for example.

But when it comes to the WHL, it's already electrified as far as the Helensburgh Junction. Would there be any sense in electrifying the route as far as Oban, with a powerful EMU hauling a DMU as far as Crianlarich for the Mallaig run?

I then got to thinkng about a posting earlier this week about DMUs hauling Mk3s...

Could a suitably powerful emu, built from the start with an appropriate hotel supply and brake connection haul the Mk3 sleeper stock onwards from the central belt to Aberdeen and Inverness (should both cities eventually be wired up of course)?
If you can't justify electrification of Cardiff - Swansea (up to three services an hour) then I'd be amazed if they could justify electrification of Helensburgh - Oban (three services a day)...

Ten locos last night:
67004
67009
67024
90018
90019
90020
90028
90029
90036
92042

Ewan
I know that the Sleeper is a bit of a complicated luxury, in railway terms, but didn't realise that *this* many locos were needed in one night. Even if some of them were only used on short (ish) bits, thats a lot of staff involved, a lot of complication.
 

MacCookie

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Can anyone confirm what is definitely going ahead in terms of Scottish Electrification?

Edinburgh - Falkirk High - Queen Street, plus the triangle to Dunblane, AIUI, but what else is 100%? I've seen various mentions of Whifflet/ Paisley Canal/ East Kilbridge, but its hard to separate the rumour from facts...
The only electrification with funding is EGIP.

The Glasgow Suburban electrification is detailed in the RUS Gen2 and has passed GRIP3.

STPR details what's next (Fife, Aberdeen, Inverness) but I doubt that any work has been done on those since STPR was published.

Ewan
 

kylemore

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If we were a sensible country like say Der Schweiz the west highland lines would have been electrified by the 1930s using cheap hydro power available from the mountains surrounding the lines.
There would be trains every two hours or so on both the Oban and Fort William sections, and there would be extensive sidings all along the route to load virtually all of the timber produced in the area.
What an impossible lovely dream for us, a prosaic everyday reality for the Swiss!
Unfortunately we're not a sensible country when it comes transport (or just about anything else to be honest!)
 

JamieFCC

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First lines to be electrified: egip Edinburgh to Glasgow via falkirk also edin/glas to dunblane and alloa, whifflet and cumbernauld lines will be electrified and connected to the argyle line. Glasgow to east kilbride and barrhead is the next step then the paisley canal route. Fife circle lines and Aberdeen line from glasgow and Edinburgh will be electrified. Inverness line is hoped to be electrified but scotrail has no permission. Also by 2020 the shorts part of the Glasgow central line will be electrified and the Motherwell to Cumbernauld line will be wired, finally the maryhill line will be wired.
 

sdrennan

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I asked a similar question with regards to Paisley Canal line. The reply was that this line was being completed early (End 2012??) as it is only a short infill from Corkerhill TMD. I know they have already been doing planning and tree/vegetation clearance
 

PaulLothian

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It has just been brought to my attention that the Transport Scotland Rail 2014 Consultation includes the possibility of closure of some stations (mostly in Glasgow) if there is another station within one mile. List of possibles is here - http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...ons/rail-2014-scottish-railway-stations-dec11

Does decision-making in relation to this possible strategy have any knock-on effect on electrification?
 

Waverley125

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the obvious electrifications to me would be:

Edinburgh-Falkirk High-Glasgow
Edinburgh-Shotts-Glasgow
Ayr-Stranraer
Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Carlisle
Edinburgh-Dundee-Aberdeen
Edinburgh-Ladybank-Perth-Inverness
Edinburgh-Falkirk Grahamston-Stirling-Perth-Inverness
Glasgow-East Kilbride
Glasgow-Falkirk Grahamston
Croy-Larbert (fill-in between Glasgow-Edinburgh and Glasgow-Falkirk Grahamston)
Fife Circle
 

JamieFCC

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the obvious electrifications to me would be:

Edinburgh-Falkirk High-Glasgow
Edinburgh-Shotts-Glasgow
Ayr-Stranraer
Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Carlisle
Edinburgh-Dundee-Aberdeen
Edinburgh-Ladybank-Perth-Inverness
Edinburgh-Falkirk Grahamston-Stirling-Perth-Inverness
Glasgow-East Kilbride
Glasgow-Falkirk Grahamston
Croy-Larbert (fill-in between Glasgow-Edinburgh and Glasgow-Falkirk Grahamston)
Fife Circle
Correct apart from kilmarnock line is only being wired up until Barrhead. And ayr to stranger isn't being wired.
 

tbtc

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the obvious electrifications to me would be:

Edinburgh-Falkirk High-Glasgow
Edinburgh-Shotts-Glasgow
Ayr-Stranraer
Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Carlisle
Edinburgh-Dundee-Aberdeen
Edinburgh-Ladybank-Perth-Inverness
Edinburgh-Falkirk Grahamston-Stirling-Perth-Inverness
Glasgow-East Kilbride
Glasgow-Falkirk Grahamston
Croy-Larbert (fill-in between Glasgow-Edinburgh and Glasgow-Falkirk Grahamston)
Fife Circle
Obvious? A fifty mile line with a handful of services a day (average load of eleven passengers on each Stranraer service IIRC?)? When the ferry traffic has disappeared?

This is basically a list of "every railway line in Scotland apart from the Far North/ Kyle/ West Highland, not an "obvious" list, sorry.
 

route101

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I wonder what stock will be used on East Kilbride services . Anyone know when work starts on Electrification ou of Queen St?
 

Whistler40145

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I would like to see Rutherglen East Jn-Whifflet wired plus the north spur.

This could provide both ScotRail & Virgin Trains (or whoever holds the franchise) an alternative electrified link towards Falkirk Grahamston & Motherwell. I think the current Edinburgh-Glasgow Queen Street should alternate with 2tph to Glasgow Central via Cumbernauld.

Please make constructive comments.


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