Scottish independence

[Zoe]

However it would be morally wrong to dabble with the result either way.

But how is the referendum going to be taken seriously if the UK government are insisting that the Scottish government do not have the power to hold it?

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that the referendum should be held sooner rather than later.

Ultimately it's up to the Scots to decide whether they want in or not, but I do think that those of us in the rest of the UK have a right to know whether they are committed to the country or not, rather than dragging out the process for years on end, particularly since the choice will have spending and investment implications for the rest of the country one way or the other.

The point about whether the Scottish Parliament has the power to hold a legally binding referendum or not is neither here nor there. If Scotland voted for independence in a "non legally binding" referendum, Westminster wouldn't have any choice but to start negotiating Scotlands withdrawal from the UK as there would be a mandate for it.

 

[scotsman]

If Scotland voted for independence in a "non legally binding" referendum, Westminster wouldn't have any choice but to start negotiating Scotlands withdrawal from the UK as there would be a mandate for it.

That's the original plan for independence, before the legality was questioned. I like the idea of two referendums, so when people see how pointless, or even hard, it's going to be, people can change their mind later.

 

[dubscottie]

As a Scottish ex-pat now in Ireland I think the SNP are trying to copy the ROI. Notice all the bilingual signs?

I suppose the fact that Scotland ASKED to join in a union with England in 1707 makes it easier to leave it.

Is it true that Shetland belongs to nobody? If you buy a small island of there you could in theory make it a new country. Some old Viking law..

Anyway I don't care. I could see Scotland was doomed 10 years ago and left.. And most of the Scots I know in Dublin would never move back unless they won the lottery..

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst the Acts of Union 1707 marked the conjoining of the nation states, they had shared a common monarch since 1603, when James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne.

 

[Mike C]

Bring Scottish Devolution on asap, as far as I am concerned.

Then we can get back to English Parliamentary matters being decided by ENGLISH MPs instead of having contentious Legislation forced through by Scottish MPs who refused to vote yes for themselves in Scotland.

WE can also then go back to permanent BST rather than being held back at the ankles because a couple of Scotsmen may have to go to work in the dark :roll:

The Scots can also then decide which Country they want to befriend as the majority clearly hate the English - as aptly demonstrated by Andy Murray in 2006 when he stated he would support "anyone but England" - source Scottish Daily Record. He also wore a Paragauy shirt when they played England.

In this hatred of England and all things English he is not alone but rather represents the majority I feel. The remainder rather shrewdly realise the large amounts of money that they get per head in proportion and remain somewhat more "discreet".

I'm Scottish and I find this offensive. In fact I, along with many friends and relatives have battled for years to dispel this myth propagated by the mindless minority. It's like saying all England football supporters are hooligans but we all know the image is unfortunate because of the minority that makes the headlines. Mr Murray was a bad example of how to handle things and as usual blown up by the press. Who, as railwaymen, we know enjoy being liberal with the facts. That said, I'm not a fan of Murray and part of it is because he handled that situation poorly.

I married an English girl, have lived in England for 15 years and most of my closest friends are English. I support the England football team when they are playing anyone except Scotland but that's natural being that I'm Scottish. This impression that the majority of Scots hate the English is false. I know this because I lived there for 22 years including 3 years in Glasgow. I am NOT he minority and comments such as those above do us no good, nor yourself for believing what is hyped. Above all, I'm proud to be British.





--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the original topic though, I am personally against an independent Scotland because while I feel the economy wouldn't sink within 10 years as someone stated (don't underestimate us!) I believe the UK (which is the bigger picture in my opinion) is stronger together.

 

[Oswyntail]

The SNP has known since devolution that "constitutional" matters were amongst those "reserved" to Westminster. They have known that the only way a legitimate "mandate" (whatever that means) for independence could arise is from a referendum organised by Westminster. So they are either being stupid - thinking that, if they shout loud enough, they can ignore the legal requirements - or, as I believe, playing a double game. They already make great political capital out of being "Bravehearts", fighting the oppressing English in the name of Scottish history and culture. However, if independence was granted, their main purpose, and so their hold on political power, would soon fade. So what better tactic than being thwarted in their demands to hold an illegal referendum by the evil southerners? Call me an old cynic, but the SNP politcians do not strike me as very different from most politicians, whose aim is to stay in power at all costs.

 

[HawkeyeTheNoo]

I'm Scottish and have lived here all my life and I can categorically state that 99.9% of us do not hate the English. The reason in terms of football that most of us won't support England is because of the arrogance of the pundits on tv and the press claiming a game or tournament is won before it even begins and also going on and on about 1966 every chance they get!
I love many English places I have visited, met many wonderful English people and have many English friends and even have some English family. I am also British and proud of it and did not vote for the Scottish parliament however it's here now! that's democracy! I will not vote for Independence and I don't think the majority will. I do think since we and the Welsh have a devolved parliament that the English should have one too, that would be fair!

 

[Butts]

I'm Scottish and have lived here all my life and I can categorically state that 99.9% of us do not hate the English. The reason in terms of football that most of us won't support England is because of the arrogance of the pundits on tv and the press claiming a game or tournament is won before it even begins and also going on and on about 1966 every chance they get!
I love many English places I have visited, met many wonderful English people and have many English friends and even have some English family. I am also British and proud of it and did not vote for the Scottish parliament however it's here now! that's democracy! I will not vote for Independence and I don't think the majority will. I do think since we and the Welsh have a devolved parliament that the English should have one too, that would be fair!

With regard to football if you look closely we are no better up here.

I can remember "Allys Tartan Army" et all making equally ridiculous predictions with regard to Scotland progressing in football tournaments.

The crux of the matter is "The David and Goliath" complex - the little man is always trying to get one over on the bigger one.

Even within Scotland (as in England) there are divisions between North and South. Furthermore some on places like Shetland and Orkney are no more in favour of being ruled from Edinburgh than London

 

[Glenmutchkin]

I'm Scottish and I find this offensive.

I married an English girl, have lived in England for 15 years and most of my closest friends are English. I support the England football team when they are playing anyone except Scotland but that's natural being that I'm Scottish. This impression that the majority of Scots hate the English is false. I know this because I lived there for 22 years including 3 years in Glasgow. I am NOT he minority and comments such as those above do us no good, nor yourself for believing what is hyped. Above all, I'm proud to be British.

I'm a Yorkshireman, living in Scotland and I also find Old Timer's comments offensive. My own situation almost exactly mirrors Hawkeyethenoo. I married a Scots girl and after 10 years in Yorkshire we moved to Scotland for work. My kids have been brought up here, I have worked here and we have plenty of friends of both nationalities. I, also, am proud to be British.

Sectarianism is a far worse issue in Scotland than xenophobia and may yet sink independence if it is not tackled properly.

 

[Mike C]

Sectarianism is a far worse issue in Scotland than xenophobia and may yet sink independence if it is not tackled properly.

Sad but true.

 

[Teaboy1]

As this issue inevitably would herald the end of the Union ...... and being English I therefore am part of the same Union .......... do I get to vote in this? After all it should not just be the Scots who should be able to vote, it affects me as I am sure the rest of the Union members. The vote should be for all Union members .... Scotland, N Ireland, Wales & England.

 

[Butts]

As this issue inevitably would herald the end of the Union ...... and being English I therefore am part of the same Union .......... do I get to vote in this? After all it should not just be the Scots who should be able to vote, it affects me as I am sure the rest of the Union members. The vote should be for all Union members .... Scotland, N Ireland, Wales & England.

In a word no - unless you are registered to vote in Scotland as many English, Welsh and Irish people who live here are.

Scots registered in the rest of the UK will not get a vote either.

Don't panic it'll be a rerun of the AV vote - a resounding no

 

[ainsworth74]

But why shouldn't it be a UK wide vote? It's an issue that's going to effect the entire UK why shouldn't the rest of the UK be able to have their say?

 

[yorksrob]

Well, it could happen theoretically - but each country would only be able to decide on its own future. So Wales could vote on whether Wales stayed in the Union, England on England and N Ireland on N Ireland.

 

[CarterUSM]

I can't help thinking Westminster is playing into the SNP hands, I'm sure salmond would be delighted if legal action delayed a referendum any longer and he can as usual blame the fact they're not getting a referendum because a big boy did it and ran away.

 

[Greenback]

I can't help thinking Westminster is playing into the SNP hands, I'm sure salmond would be delighted if legal action delayed a referendum any longer and he can as usual blame the fact they're not getting a referendum because a big boy did it and ran away.

Alex Salmond is playing a good game so far. If the Westminster government pushes too hard it will inevitably push people towards voting for independence. I have been impressed with his statements. London is definitely on the back foot at the moment.

 

[kylemore]

Used to think the SNP was a one man band but I'm increasingly impressed with Sturgeon, so if the uusual suspects are tempted to deal with this with the faithful old "heart attack whilst hill-walking" scenario (unlikely I know with Eck - maybe a heart attack at the horses!) then they might have to think again
.....Yes Ah know,Ah'll get ma tinfoil hat

 

[scotsman]

Quote of the day "[anyone who opposes independence] is anti-Scottish" - Joan McAlpine MSP, SNP

Says it all really...

 

[wbbminerals]

I think Britain is better united, however if Scotland went it would be their loss more than the rest of the UK's. I don't think being able to vote at 16 is good though.

 

[Butts]

I think Britain is better united, however if Scotland went it would be their loss more than the rest of the UK's. I don't think being able to vote at 16 is good though.

If you can get married at 16 why not vote ?

 

[yorksrob]

If you can get married at 16 why not vote ?

That's a fair point I must admit. Though:

I have to say, my view's always been if you're old enough to vote, you're old enough to be banged up for life without parole.
I don't think at 16 you're fully responsible for your actions, i.e. you're not old enough to have your life taken away, and by the same token, you're not old enough to exercise the franchise.

 

[ainsworth74]

If you can get married at 16 why not vote ?

You can even have kids at 16 (legally at least). So the state/society considers you competent to have kids and get married but not to vote in an election? Always struck me as odd (though not as odd as the US where you can get killed in a war fighting in the army/navy/airforce but can't buy a beer!).

 

[Butts]

That's a fair point I must admit. Though:

I have to say, my view's always been if you're old enough to vote, you're old enough to be banged up for life without parole.
I don't think at 16 you're fully responsible for your actions, i.e. you're not old enough to have your life taken away, and by the same token, you're not old enough to exercise the franchise.

Agreed they should all be reduced to 16

 

[yorksrob]

You can even have kids at 16 (legally at least). So the state/society considers you competent to have kids and get married but not to vote in an election? Always struck me as odd (though not as odd as the US where you can get killed in a war fighting in the army/navy/airforce but can't buy a beer!).

I find it odd that you're considered competent enough to procreate at sixteen, but not competent to enjoy a pint of ale !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed they should all be reduced to 16

You're a harsh man

 

[ainsworth74]

I find it odd that you're considered competent enough to procreate at sixteen, but not competent to enjoy a pint of ale !

Also true!

 

[Trog]

Well, it could happen theoretically - but each country would only be able to decide on its own future. So Wales could vote on whether Wales stayed in the Union, England on England and N Ireland on N Ireland.

If done that way it would be interesting if Scotland voted to stay in, and England voted for seperation.


Personally I feel that the best solution is the one that involves the minimum number of MP's etc. of all types with their noses in the trough. Hence I am against devolution, except if it was done by the Scottish MP's we were already paying for at Westminster meeting on their own to decide internal Scottish matters.

 

[Chew Chew]

I don't think that the SNP would win a vote for Scottish independence but it tells me a hell of a lot that the Tories are ****ting themselves so much about it with their recent comments.

Let the SNP have their desired date in 2014, let them chose the questions. Then when they fail nail them if they don't get the answers they want.

It is that simple.

Otherwise, let the people of Scotland have their say of what they want.

 

[scotsman]

I don't think that the SNP would win a vote for Scottish independence but it tells me a hell of a lot that the Tories are ****ting themselves so much about it with their recent comments.

Let the SNP have their desired date in 2014, let them chose the questions. Then when they fail nail them if they don't get the answers they want.

It is that simple.

Otherwise, let the people of Scotland have their say of what they want.

No, no and no.

The SNP have tried to rig the referendum - this much we know.

They wanted to have three answers: No, Devo Max, and Yes. This could mean Scotland would become independent on a polling of 40% No, 30% Devo Max, 30% Yes.

Had the popularity of Devo Max been higher, they would have likely settled for a referendum now.

They have allowed 16 and 17 year olds to vote in the referendum - I support this, but find this policy strange.

In 2010, they allowed 16 and 17 year olds to vote in Health Board elections - now, without much time to analyse turnout, they're immediately extending the franchise. Why? Because the polls show that younger people support independence more.

Finally, they said they wanted their own commission, reporting to Holyrood, to run the referendum. This is strange, because the London-based Electoral Commission have successfully run thousands of legally-binding ballots without question of tampering. Why change the status-quo?

 

[Greenback]

No, no and no.

The SNP have tried to rig the referendum - this much we know.

They wanted to have three answers: No, Devo Max, and Yes. This could mean Scotland would become independent on a polling of 40% No, 30% Devo Max, 30% Yes.

Had the popularity of Devo Max been higher, they would have likely settled for a referendum now.

They have allowed 16 and 17 year olds to vote in the referendum - I support this, but find this policy strange.

In 2010, they allowed 16 and 17 year olds to vote in Health Board elections - now, without much time to analyse turnout, they're immediately extending the franchise. Why? Because the polls show that younger people support independence more.

Finally, they said they wanted their own commission, reporting to Holyrood, to run the referendum. This is strange, because the London-based Electoral Commission have successfully run thousands of legally-binding ballots without question of tampering. Why change the status-quo?

One possible answer to the franchise extension (how odd to use that term in a non railway context!) could be that it is the younger people that will have to live with the consequences of the referendum for longer, though on that basis you could argue for 10 year olds to have a vote!

I suspect the objection to the Electoral Commission is base don the fact that a referendum about independence should be run from Edinburgh, not by a London based organisation. Pride, pure and simple, but I can udnerstand it, a bit like the objections you might hear if Brussels ran a referendum in England!

I doubt even the SNP would say that a 40% vote for independence is a strong mandate, but I could be wrong! I think it'smore likely that a third option, for Devo Max, would tend to weaken the Yes vote. Again, I could be wrong, though!