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Scottish independence

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yorksrob

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Great Britain is defined as a political entity by the Act of Union 1707. The later Act of Union with Ireland created a single United Kingdom but this was between Great Britain and Ireland (later Northern Ireland) and from this time the two Kingdoms became a single political entity so Scotland would need to no longer be part of Great Britain boths Acts are to remain unchanged.

Well, yes, you may have a point about Great Britain being a political entity in the terms of the Act.

That said, I still believe that the 1707 Act would have to be repealed in it's entirety for the 1801 act to be automatically voided. Without this, a Scottish Independence Act would just have the effect of modifying the 1707 Act so that as far as the 1801 Act is concerned, England/Wales would be the successor to "Great Britain".
 
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Butts

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Can we just clarify a point :

The 1707 Act of Union was between England and Scotland - ratified by both Parliaments creating Great Britain.

The 1801 Act added Ireland creating the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland - again ratified by the British and Irish Parliaments.

Wales has nothing to do with either Acts as it's status as a "vassal of England" - sorry Greenback- precludes it's inclusion.

There was no Welsh Parliament - it is not included in The Royal Coats of Arms as mentioned previously or on the Union Flag.

Actually it would be more interesting constitutionally as to what would happen if Wales were to become independent.

As it is not a sovereign state that would really throw the cat amongst the pigeons.:p
 

Zoe

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True but it was and can be again as it voluntarily entered The Act of Union - which similar legislation covers Englands "anchluss" of Wales ?
It may have voluntarily entered into the union but that doesn't give the right to leave a political union. There was actually a war about this the other side of the Atlantic.
 

Butts

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It may have voluntarily entered into the union but that doesn't give the right to leave a political union. There was actually a war about this the other side of the Atlantic.

I think we have moved on a bit since "tea taxation" was a hot topic - well I hope so:p

Right of self determination and all that ......

Whats your view on Wales and its lack of involvement with regard to these Acts of Union at various points in the past ? and its virtual nonentity status with regard to this matter.
 

Zoe

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Whats your view on Wales and its lack of involvement with regard to these Acts of Union at various points in the past ? and its virtual nonentity status with regard to this matter.
At the time the general public had very little say in issues like this so I think it would be different now if Wales wanted independence.
 

Butts

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At the time the general public had very little say in issues like this so I think it would be different now if Wales wanted independence.

Surely the same applies to England and Scotland - this does not answer their total lack of representation on The Union Flag or Royal Coat of Arms. :lol:
 

Zoe

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Surely the same applies to England and Scotland - this does not answer their total lack of representation on The Union Flag or Royal Coat of Arms.
As I say, I doubt the general public would have had much say on any flag at the time the governments decided on it. If there was a plan for a new flag after Scotland left the union then I would expect there to be campaigns for including Wales in it.
 

Butts

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As I say, I doubt the general public would have had much say on any flag at the time the governments decided on it. If there was a plan for a new flag after Scotland left the union then I would expect there to be campaigns for including Wales in it.

My reading of the situation would be that it was not considered important enough to warrant inclusion thus rendering it's status below that of England, Scotland or Ireland- which were all sovereign states.
 

Zoe

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My reading of the situation would be that it was not considered important enough to warrant inclusion thus rendering it's status below that of England, Scotland or Ireland- which were all sovereign states.
That may have been the case back then but I believe things would be different now. Here's a question though: Why is Wales these days seen as separate from England but Cornwall is not?
 

Butts

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That may have been the case back then but I believe things would be different now. Here's a question though: Why is Wales these days seen as separate from England but Cornwall is not?

Wales has some ancient history as a seperate nation from England, but due to it's virtual assimilation in the mists of time it has almost achieved the status of Cornwall - ie a region.

It has the same Legal System, Similar Church and Education -no WQA to Scotlands SQA.
 

reb0118

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The Act of Union was between the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. It was not between England, Scotland and Ireland. If Scotland wants to leave Great Britain (created by an earlier Act of Union) then the remaining part of Great Britain would still be in union with Nothern Ireland.

If Scotland, or indeed England, formally leaves Great Britain then there is no United Kingdom of Great Britain. The United Kingdom of Great Britain was created by the union of Scotland & England and .................my mum says that I've got to stop this NOW and help her in with the shopping or I'll get no tea!!:cry::cry:

To be continued................

ps I'm 41
 

Zoe

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If Scotland, or indeed England, formally leaves Great Britain then there is no United Kingdom of Great Britain. The United Kingdom of Great Britain was created by the union of Scotland & England
The Kingdom of Great Britain was created by the union of Scotland and England and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was then created by the union of the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland. Scotland leaving Great Britian would not automatically result in Great Britain ceasing to exist unless it was decided to completely void the 1707 Act of Union to restore the old Scottish and English states rather than just creating a new independent Scotland. If this is not done the the rest of Great Britain will most likely be renamed and will still be in union with Northern Ireland.
 
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Greenback

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Wales was never a proper 'nation' as we understand it in modern terms, but it had what we wcan regard as a seperate set of national laws, a national church and was regarded by those living on the borderlands as a seperate country before the inhabitants were subdued by military force.

In this respect, in my view, it has just as strong a case for withdrawing from 'the union' as Scotland - possibly more so since Wales was conquered!

As to flags, there is a 'true' flag of Wales, the Cross of St David. If Wales were ever to gain full indpendence that may well become the national flag.
 

Butts

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Wales was never a proper 'nation' as we understand it in modern terms, but it had what we wcan regard as a seperate set of national laws, a national church and was regarded by those living on the borderlands as a seperate country before the inhabitants were subdued by military force.

In this respect, in my view, it has just as strong a case for withdrawing from 'the union' as Scotland - possibly more so since Wales was conquered!

As to flags, there is a 'true' flag of Wales, the Cross of St David. If Wales were ever to gain full indpendence that may well become the national flag.

I was in Abertawe the night of the vote on creating the assembly - if I remember rightly it only just scraped through on the last declaration - Carmarthen?

If you discounted Pembroke and Monmouth you may have a chance of getting within sight of Independence.

One glaring statistic says it all when comparing Scotland and Wales and it's likliehood of gaining independence.

1997 Conservatives wiped out in Scotland and Wales......

2010 - they are well and truly back in Wales but nowhere in sight in Scotland-cue the panda comparison:p

I believe there is a correlation between the number of Conservative MP's Scotland and Wales have and the chances of a split.
 

yorksrob

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I don't think that it's so much to do with whether Wales would choose independence, as the fact that it's recognised as a seperate political/legal entity from England and could force a referendum in the same way as Scotland.

I would argue that the devolution legislation is as much a part of what we used to call the "unwritten" constitution as the Acts of Union etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes but unlike Australia et al - Scotland has the Lord Lyon who does all the "heraldic stuff":p

We are talking Englands Three Lions , Scotlands Lion Rampant, Irish Harp and the Scottish Unicorn (sorry Wales but you don't figure :oops:)

I had a Scottish friend who used to take great pleasure in unfavourably comparing our three effete lions with the lion rampant :lol:
 

Butts

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I don't think that it's so much to do with whether Wales would choose independence, as the fact that it's recognised as a seperate political/legal entity from England and could force a referendum in the same way as Scotland.

I would argue that the devolution legislation is as much a part of what we used to call the "unwritten" constitution as the Acts of Union etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I had a Scottish friend who used to take great pleasure in unfavourably comparing our three effete lions with the lion rampant :lol:

What he forgot to mention is that there are 2 1/4's = 6 "Effete Lions" :roll:

1 Lion rampant and 1 Harp forming the other quarters.

So who has the last laugh - you not us :oops:
 

yorksrob

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What he forgot to mention is that there are 2 1/4's = 6 "Effete Lions" :roll:

1 Lion rampant and 1 Harp forming the other quarters.

So who has the last laugh - you not us :oops:

He was very confident about his rampant lion.

Not sure what use a harp would be though !
 

Butts

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As an ale man I wouldn't know about that sort of thing :lol:

It was a lie anyway - wasn't even sharp at the top :lol:

Moving back to Scottish Independence I believe we ought to extend the size of the Country to incorporate Northumberland , Westmorland and possibly Yorkshire as well - at least the Northern part.

These areas probably have more in common with Scotland than those south of the watford gap.
 

yorksrob

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It was a lie anyway - wasn't even sharp at the top :lol:

Moving back to Scottish Independence I believe we ought to extend the size of the Country to incorporate Northumberland , Westmorland and possibly Yorkshire as well - at least the Northern part.

These areas probably have more in common with Scotland than those south of the watford gap.

I think I can forsee the result of that referendum :lol::lol:
 

Zoe

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The North East of course when given the chance to have devolution rejected it.
 

yorksrob

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Maybe they just weren't ready. I do think the time's coming for a less centralised England. It'll be more about the practical realisation that London doesn't always govern in the best interests of the rest of the country rather than a cultural movement.
 

Butts

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Maybe they just weren't ready. I do think the time's coming for a less centralised England. It'll be more about the practical realisation that London doesn't always govern in the best interests of the rest of the country rather than a cultural movement.

This is partly the reason the Independence movement has gained momentum in Scotland.

The "Londoncentric" view that nothing interesting happens outside of the M25 is grating not only for Scotland but other parts of England as well and indeed Wales.
 

yorksrob

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This is partly the reason the Independence movement has gained momentum in Scotland.

The "Londoncentric" view that nothing interesting happens outside of the M25 is grating not only for Scotland but other parts of England as well and indeed Wales.

This is undoubtedly true. It will be interesting to see how the regions of England will manage to grasp greater power without the pre-existing national distinctions of the devolved nations.
 

Schnellzug

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Why this assumption that the "South" is a unified bunch of Tories? There's, as i've observed before, every bit as much an "east/west divide" south of the M4 Corridor as there is a North/South Divide. In fact, it really is only a relatively small area, say, east of the Solent and south of, say, Northampton, that's the blessed land that's given all the attention by the Government.


In other news, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but Alex has revealed his plans for a resurrected Scottish Army. It seems to basically entail simply appropriating the Scottish regiments and anything else that might happen to be north of the Border.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...ls_vision_for_scottish_armed_forces_1_2067235
 

yorksrob

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Why this assumption that the "South" is a unified bunch of Tories? There's, as i've observed before, every bit as much an "east/west divide" south of the M4 Corridor as there is a North/South Divide. In fact, it really is only a relatively small area, say, east of the Solent and south of, say, Northampton, that's the blessed land that's given all the attention by the Government.

I never mentioned the North specifically. I think that areas such as the South West also have cause for greater self governance. There's also the fact that centralisation continued, even when a party which was supposedly more rooted in the North of England was in power.

In other news, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but Alex has revealed his plans for a resurrected Scottish Army. It seems to basically entail simply appropriating the Scottish regiments and anything else that might happen to be north of the Border.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...ls_vision_for_scottish_armed_forces_1_2067235

It's worth remembering at this point that Scotland's got the nukes ! :lol:
 
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