Scottish Labour: free bus travel for everyone

Discussion in 'Buses & Coaches' started by HullRailMan, 10 Mar 2019.

  1. Mwanesh

    Mwanesh Member

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    one thing you forget is when some of these politicians get any power they are idiots.Let me give you an example years ago i used to go to work Hertford to Enfield 310 route.One day Tfl just decided they did not want Arriva aquamarine in London which meant i had to change buses at Waltham Cross.Big cities are better served its the small villages on the edges of big towns who suffer .Inter urban routes how many municipals left go beyond their borders.Save for Reading to Newbury you will be hard pressed to find one who goes out of town.So its a catch 22 situation.
     
  2. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Established Member

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    Surely though, this all comes back to money. Whether it's a regulated, franchised or deregulated environment, we have got massive issues in a) being able to afford the current concessionary pass schemes, b) the ability to support non-commercial services (services where costs are in excess of revenue). So where does the money come from? Cross subsidise? Never, ever works. Seize assets without compensation - fund with the shareholder profits? Look at the sums - hardly huge.

    The real key is local taxation but then again, it's a brave politician who does that. You can see the headlines in the local rag on congestion zones etc, plus the impact on local traders etc. The sad fact is that there are very few votes in transport - see https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...ent/c7yivx1vzx/YG Trackers - Top Issues_W.pdf However, there are votes to be lost by adversely impacting the car user! Hence we see many cities approaching clean air zones in cheerfully slapping a tax on buses and lorries (even 2015 Euro V ones) whilst allowing anyone to drive through in their 2.5 litre 2005 diesel car!!

    I travel into and within Bristol and the local politicians have been pilloried for metrobus - even before the issues they encountered and despite the fact that a lot of the developments were a way of sneaking through new roads! However, there are plenty of areas where they could put additional bus lanes etc - it would improve public transport reliability and reduce pollution but they won't because of the divine right of people to park their car outside their house.

    So, back on topic, it's very easy to get a headline grabbing policy. Who doesn't want something free? However, the funding of that is crucial and, TBH, if there's extra money to be spent, is a politician more likely to spend it on one of the public's greater priorities?
     
  3. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    I've heard this claim before, but it didn't seem to apply to other Arriva routes. Several other operators continue to operate cross border services including Uno and their bright pink buses. Arriva had been reducing the frequency within London of the 310/311 for a while before withdrawing it completely. Where did your hear it?
     
    Last edited: 13 Mar 2019 at 13:30
  4. duncombec

    duncombec Member

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    Wary of going too off-topic, but if I remember correctly the reasoning surrounded TfL's preference for services to operate under LSP conditions, rather than LLSA conditions. LSP conditions are more onerous and have various fare-acceptance requirements. I also seem to remember a fair few cross-border services were withdrawn at a similar time.
     
  5. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    There was a time when London Buses competed with Arriva on the Enfield to Hertford corridor, the red buses using a 310A number. I believe they competed on fares too, London Buses claiming their's were cheaper.
     
  6. philthetube

    philthetube Established Member

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    This would cost more to collect than it would bring in when you consider cash handling costs and how much more quickly busses could operate with no cash to collect or passes to view.
     
  7. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    Plus:
    Everyone who works for TfL or London local government or a bus operator or London Overground.
    Elite athletes.
    Traffic Wardens.
    Police.
    Those training guide dogs.
     
  8. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    I don't think LSPs dictate any fare acceptance. Quite a few LLSA routes accepted TfL fares. However operators dropped TfL fares and passes as the amount they got rose far less quickly than their own fares. I think the last route to take TfL posses was the 84.

    Indeed LSPs cannot dictate any fare conditions.
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/Data/Transport%20Committee/20060302/Agenda/4%20Appendix%20A%20PDF.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiglbz7kv7gAhXsQRUIHSPfBvwQFjAGegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw33H4Zb9K5vnO_c4xooHf25
     
  9. duncombec

    duncombec Member

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    My mistake, LLSA's are those with fare conditions (page 78 of this preview): https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ge&q="London Local Service Agreement"&f=false

    From that, ALL LLSA's were obliged to accept TfL fares and were reimbursed, which means Deerfold's suggestion that operators dropped TfL fares is correct. I don't think it had anything to do with "not wanting Arriva aquamarine in London."

    By and large, because London Buses are so different to the rest of the country (from regulation to usage and all points in between), it doesn't really help to use them as an example of how things could function elsewhere. As we are seeing with London and railways, the UK government is reducing subsidy, expecting those individuals who use public transport to pay more for it. This is quite the contrast to the other examples that have been specified above, and certainly more than a simple nationalisation/municpalisation of operators.
     
  10. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Its actually primarily down to the age profile of users and that in London they tend to be very short trips. Free bus travel usage is actually highest in and around the seaside resort towns.
     
  11. LivingBelowYM

    LivingBelowYM Member

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    But why is the age profile of users in London less skewed to the old and young compared to elsewhere? Because buses are actually worth using.
     
  12. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    An important factor is that the level of car ownership in London is far lower than many other cities. Overall in 2012, 46% households did not have a car. In Inner London, the figures are higher; e.g. in Islington, 74% of households do not have a car. Of those of driving age, younger people are less likely to own a car; those aged 30 are half as likely to own a car than those aged 60. Women and ethnic minorities are also less likely to own a car.

    Of course, lack of road space, lack of parking spaces and high insurance costs are negative reasons for not owning a car - but the quality and low cost of the bus network (plus the availability of car clubs and Uber) are positive reasons for not owning a car.
     
  13. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    There is still an non London bus route in southeast London that accepts oyster and Travelcards
     
  14. higthomas

    higthomas Member

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    Which one?
    And what do you mean they accept Oyster?
     
  15. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    I believe the 477 accepts Travelcards on the small part of its route from Orpington Station to the London/Kent border, but doesn't take Oyster unless something has occurred in recent months.
     
  16. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    Oyster Travelcards are accepted on the 477 and on presentation of an oyster you are charged a £1.50 cash fare.
     
  17. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    So you can't use non-travelcard Oyster as intended, but have to fork out the cash.
     
  18. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    No although I don't know how oyster Travelcards work on it.
     
  19. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    No because the average age of the population of London is 36.1 years, the sixth lowest in the UK (Lowest Slough 33.9 years, then Oxford 34.4 and Luton 36.5) primarily due to a confluence of high immigration, immigrant families having larger families and student populations. London has the lowest amount of pensioners of any UK city with only 1/10 being over 65.

    The City with the oldest population in the UK is Blackpool with an average age of 43.2 followed by Worthing (43), Bournemouth (42.8) and Southend (42.2)
     
  20. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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    Are they really all cities now ???
     
  21. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    ONS considers a place a city if it has a daytime working population in excess of 75,000 So there are 69 official cities and 112 places the ONS considers cities. However they wont line up as some 'official' cities are too small to be counted as such by the ONS, *cough* St Davids *cough* which is just one ward of Pembrokeshire County Council.
     
    Last edited: 14 Mar 2019 at 21:48
  22. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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    Thanks, I guess most people still refer to a 'city' in the accepted, traditional, sense

    .
     

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