Scrapping of Mk3 sleeper vehicles by British Rail

[bramling]

Well, 32 years is perhaps a good lifetime in non-Southern Region terms !

Wish I'd had the chance to sample the route before it went to Metrolink.

Yes the class 504 is one type of train I really regret not having travelled on. To my eyes beautiful both inside and out!

 

[yorksrob]

Yes the class 504 is one type of train I really regret not having travelled on. To my eyes beautiful both inside and out!

A proper slammer !

 

[47271]

A proper slammer !

Back on topic - there's no better proper slammer than a 16 coach Caledonian Sleeper...

 

[Highlandspring]

Someone , somewhere needs to write a book on the "sleeper story" ...

100% agreed!

https://www.amberley-books.com/discover-books/local-history/anglo-scottish-sleepers.html
This is as good as you'll get at the moment.

Unfortunately its not ‘good’ by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Andrew1395]

The new MK3 sleepers only had a few years on the ECML overnight services before the services were withdrawn due to electrification of the ECML.... BR did promise to reinstate the sleeper services after compleation of electrification but never did to the anger of Scottish MPs of the day.... Due to the withdrawal of East Coast sleeper services which mean't there was a surplus of MK3 sleepers even though BR did introduce a service from Scotland to Poole around 1986 but ran for no more than a year..... ( if memory is correct )

SC 43090

When services ceased to run from Kings Cross, they operated from Euston instead. I still remember the chaos due to the late (in fact non) arrival of the Bounds Green stock to form the down services on the first night they were to operate out of Euston.

 

[47271]

Unfortunately its not ‘good’ by any stretch of the imagination.

He he, I think you knew exactly what I meant.

There's definitely room for a proper scholarly piece on UK sleeper services. I hand over to some of the larger and more articulate egos on this forum...

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Does anyone remember the SNCF "Cabine 8"...they fitted 8 people quite uncomfortably sort of lying down in a compartment?

Yes. By the end of the night I understood why so few people were using them!

 

[yorksrob]

Back on topic - there's no better proper slammer than a 16 coach Caledonian Sleeper...

Although presumably not for long !

 

[Journeyman]

Yes. By the end of the night I understood why so few people were using them!

Have you seen the Inside Number Nine episode "La Couchette"?

 

[Journeyman]

There's definitely room for a proper scholarly piece on UK sleeper services. I hand over to some of the larger and more articulate egos on this forum...

There really is. I've spoken to a few people about this myself, and I know one or two people are interested in writing something, but Sleepers have always been a bit "invisible" and mysterious, so it's bit of niche interest. Having done some work for Caledonian Sleeper in their early days, which was really interesting, I'd love to see someone put a decent book together. I'd write it myself if anyone fancies funding me to do it!

 

[Cowley]

Have you seen the Inside Number Nine episode "La Couchette"?

I have. It's very good.

 

[Grumpy]

https://www.amberley-books.com/discover-books/local-history/anglo-scottish-sleepers.html
This is as good as you'll get at the moment.

Just to reiterate to the OP: there is no three way connection between the Tories, excessive production of sleeper coaches and the 1980s nasty that is the Pacer!

It's just the usual display of lack of knowledge of the true facts twisted into an anti-Tory rant

 

[Taunton]

A few other things did in the sleeper trade.

Internal airline travel increased notably after 1980. British Airways was allowed to be challenged on the main internal routes by others, and they fought back with their own enhancements. Among other things the increased services brought earlier and later flights which made day business trips much more practical. The fought-for traffic included that which had previously used sleepers.

Many traditional sleepers were part of a composite train which included parcels, mail and newspaper traffic. As these traffics were lost it became not worthwhile running just the sleepers. The few routes which justified full length sleeper services are generally those which survive today.

 

[Journeyman]

Many traditional sleepers were part of a composite train which included parcels, mail and newspaper traffic. As these traffics were lost it became not worthwhile running just the sleepers. The few routes which justified full length sleeper services are generally those which survive today.

This is a very significant point which explains the widespread disappearance of overnight passenger trains, be they seated or sleepers. In the past, the railway carried a lot of overnight mail/parcel/newspaper traffic in vans which were fully compatible with passenger stock, i.e. had steam or electric heating connections and were capable of the same speeds. So...it was no skin off BR's nose to stick one or two passenger carriages on to provide a bit of capacity, as it didn't really cost them anything and even if only one or two people used it - frequently the case - they got a bit of extra cash. Always popular with enthusiasts if a Mk 1 compartment vehicle was provided - armrests up, blinds down, lightbulbs out the window, a welcome few hours' kip!

The first blow came with sectorisation, as it was a major obstacle to the running of mixed trains. The next blow was the widespread disappearance of mail/parcels traffic. The result was a huge reduction in the number of obscure long-distance overnight workings.

 

[yorksrob]

This is a very significant point which explains the widespread disappearance of overnight passenger trains, be they seated or sleepers. In the past, the railway carried a lot of overnight mail/parcel/newspaper traffic in vans which were fully compatible with passenger stock, i.e. had steam or electric heating connections and were capable of the same speeds. So...it was no skin off BR's nose to stick one or two passenger carriages on to provide a bit of capacity, as it didn't really cost them anything and even if only one or two people used it - frequently the case - they got a bit of extra cash. Always popular with enthusiasts if a Mk 1 compartment vehicle was provided - armrests up, blinds down, lightbulbs out the window, a welcome few hours' kip!

The first blow came with sectorisation, as it was a major obstacle to the running of mixed trains. The next blow was the widespread disappearance of mail/parcels traffic. The result was a huge reduction in the number of obscure long-distance overnight workings.

Yes, its a real shame such services no longer exist.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

This is a very significant point which explains the widespread disappearance of overnight passenger trains, be they seated or sleepers. In the past, the railway carried a lot of overnight mail/parcel/newspaper traffic in vans which were fully compatible with passenger stock, i.e. had steam or electric heating connections and were capable of the same speeds. So...it was no skin off BR's nose to stick one or two passenger carriages on to provide a bit of capacity, as it didn't really cost them anything and even if only one or two people used it - frequently the case - they got a bit of extra cash. Always popular with enthusiasts if a Mk 1 compartment vehicle was provided - armrests up, blinds down, lightbulbs out the window, a welcome few hours' kip!

The first blow came with sectorisation, as it was a major obstacle to the running of mixed trains. The next blow was the widespread disappearance of mail/parcels traffic. The result was a huge reduction in the number of obscure long-distance overnight workings.

These trains were also used by railway staff working awkward and unsocial hours - as a means to get home or to work.

I hope the comment on lighbulb removal was flippant.....

 

[furnessvale]

These trains were also used by railway staff working awkward and unsocial hours - as a means to get home or to work.

I hope the comment on lighbulb removal was flippant.....

Indeed! I too have removed lightbulbs in the past if necessary, BUT they were placed in the umbrella rack and put back in before leaving the train. In any case, many, if not all, compartments had a dimmer switch over the door which the guard would use when gripping.

 

[pitdiver]

Out of curiosity can anybody give an example of these overnight services as I seem to remember I use to catch one when I first worked for LUL and would have caught an early service frpm Milton Keynes and there were "Bodies" asleep everywhere.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Out of curiosity can anybody give an example of these overnight services as I seem to remember I use to catch one when I first worked for LUL and would have caught an early service frpm Milton Keynes and there were "Bodies" asleep everywhere.

How long ago ? - (I can get my sleuths on the case)

Indeed! I too have removed lightbulbs in the past if necessary, BUT they were placed in the umbrella rack and put back in before leaving the train. In any case, many, if not all, compartments had a dimmer switch over the door which the guard would use when gripping.

Very appropriate - best compartments for sleeping in were MK2 first ones - all the comforts needed , heat control , dimming lights and great wing back headrests for a good sleep or nap. Adjustable seats. Everything you used to get abroad to be fair. And look at today - even for day trains ..!

 

[delt1c]

How long ago ? - (I can get my sleuths on the case)



Very appropriate - best compartments for sleeping in were MK2 first ones - all the comforts needed , heat control , dimming lights and great wing back headrests for a good sleep or nap. Adjustable seats. Everything you used to get abroad to be fair. And look at today - even for day trains ..!

Have to Disagree, the best for overnight was a Mk1 SK, You stuck a reserved label on the corridor side windows and door. Wedged a peace of wood against the handle to stop anyone intruding. Pulled down the blinds, folded up the armrest and you had your own personal sleeping berth.

 

[47271]

These trains were also used by railway staff working awkward and unsocial hours - as a means to get home or to work.

This lives on - the Caledonian Sleeper is still used by Virgin staff as an early hours commuter service, particularly between Crewe and Preston.

 

[pitdiver]

How long ago ? - (I can get my sleuths on the case)



Very appropriate - best compartments for sleeping in were MK2 first ones - all the comforts needed , heat control , dimming lights and great wing back headrests for a good sleep or nap. Adjustable seats. Everything you used to get abroad to be fair. And look at today - even for day trains ..!

I would have used the service in 1989/1990

 

[Highlandspring]

This lives on - the Caledonian Sleeper is still used by Virgin staff as an early hours commuter service, particularly between Crewe and Preston.

There is a Preston crew booked to travel pass to Crewe on M16 isn’t there?

 

[Journeyman]

I hope the comment on lighbulb removal was flippant.....

I've never done it myself, but it was common.

 

[J-Rod]

So with the possible reemergence of parcels/mail traffic on 769s... reckon they could stuff in a couple of sleeper compartments? I reckon a few tip up bunks (say 12-14) per unit would be doable. Wipe clean, of course.

 

[47271]

There is a Preston crew booked to travel pass to Crewe on M16 isn’t there?

That would make sense - I crossed paths with a group of them a few years ago. I was getting off at Crewe and walked through the train to find them sitting in the lounge. Not a lot of happy smiley Virgin chit chat at 515am I should add.

I've heard of them on the northbound Highlander as well.

 

[route101]

Have to Disagree, the best for overnight was a Mk1 SK, You stuck a reserved label on the corridor side windows and door. Wedged a peace of wood against the handle to stop anyone intruding. Pulled down the blinds, folded up the armrest and you had your own personal sleeping berth.

Ive seen people do that in Europe in the compartments

 

[Highlandspring]

I've heard of them on the northbound Highlander as well.

I’ve known Virgin send a Preston driver on S25 to Lockerbie for a taxi to Glasgow when they’ve been short at Polmadie for 1R20. On one occasion last year the train didn’t stop and the driver was overcarried to Edinburgh...

 

[47271]

I’ve known Virgin send a Preston driver on S25 to Lockerbie for a taxi to Glasgow when they’ve been short at Polmadie for 1R20. On one occasion last year the train didn’t stop and the driver was overcarried to Edinburgh...

I've posted a few stories in the past about trains absent mindedly missing the Lockerbie stop in BR days, it happened a lot I believe!

 

[wellhouse]

GNER in their early days announced proposals to convert redundant Mark 3 sleepers into seated coaches, but the structural implications of removing cabin partitions and/or the work required to make the HST compatible rendered the project unviable.