SE London to Reading Stations travel advice

[betaman]

Hi all, looking for a bit of advice about a fare I've found between Woolwich and Reading.

Later this year, I'll be travelling from Woolwich to Reading two or three times a week to get to the university. I appreciate this is a bit of a long commute, but it's only for 9 months to do a postgraduate degree, so it should just about be bearable.

I've got two options: the cheaper, slower route: Southeastern from Woolwich to Waterloo East, then South Western from Waterloo to Reading. Or the faster, (much) more expensive route of Southeastern to Waterloo, Barkerloo Line to Paddington, then GWR from Paddington to Reading.

It's highly likely that I'll need to be in Reading before 10, so I'm basing my costs on booking anytime fares. Additionally, as a mature student I think I'm eligible for a 16-25 railcard which will help cut down the costs a fair bit.

I've had a look on the brfares.com site to get a bit more information about the different tickets that are available on the route. There is one in particular which has me interested: an Anytime Day Return from Woolwich Arsenal to Reading Stations costing £16.75 with a railcard. It's issued by SW Trains, and the national rail enquiries site routes you via Waterloo as expected. However, the brfares site has it as Not Underground, but doesn't say anything about via Ascot. My question therefore is, if I bought that ticket, used it to travel to Waterloo East, then used oyster between Waterloo and Paddington, would I be able to use the paper ticket from Paddington to Reading?

Thanks for any advice you might have!

 

[yorkie]

My question therefore is, if I bought that ticket, used it to travel to Waterloo East, then used oyster between Waterloo and Paddington, would I be able to use the paper ticket from Paddington to Reading?

If you have deep enough pockets to pay for a good solicitor, plenty of time on your hands, and you are prepared to fight your cause, go for it!

If not, don't

If your train departs from a gated station at Paddington, you won't get beyond Paddington without being charged an excess fare

For previous discussions on this routeing, please: see https://www.google.com/search?q="not+underground"+site:Railforums.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

There are two ways of doing an peak time journey from Woolwich to Reading via Paddington cheaper than the £35.75 anytime day return with a railcard from Woolwich Arsenal to Reading for that route, albeit with significant restrictions:

A contactless single from Woolwich Arsenal to Reading is £13.40 provided you touch in before 0630. It is £28.40 for departures between 0630 and 0930 (and again between 1600 and 1900). Only the first touch should matter (although I don't know how the out of station interchange works on platforms 1, 2-5 or 8 at Paddington - the barriers on platform 6/7 split the journey and should not be used). There is no evening time restriction on the return journey.

That would be £26.80 return if you can work to those times - no railcard discount applies. It is not possible to use the Ascot route (between Reading and Feltham) if travelling on Contactless.

The other is to split at Slough but the train has to call at that station, limiting the number of options. However, there are half-hourly services between Paddington and Reading which do stop there and it will beat the journey time via Ascot. The anytime day return from Woolwich Arsenal to Slough is £13.45 with a railcard and from Slough to Reading is £11.40. That totals £24.85 for the return journey.

@MikeWh Do you know whether out of station interchange works as expected on the validation pads on platforms 1, 8 and 9 at Paddington and the barriers on platforms 2-5? The barriers on platforms 6/7 split journeys and would result in no through fare / the peak time fare being charged between 0630 and 0930.

 

[Watershed]

Hi all, looking for a bit of advice about a fare I've found between Woolwich and Reading.

Later this year, I'll be travelling from Woolwich to Reading two or three times a week to get to the university. I appreciate this is a bit of a long commute, but it's only for 9 months to do a postgraduate degree, so it should just about be bearable.

I've got two options: the cheaper, slower route: Southeastern from Woolwich to Waterloo East, then South Western from Waterloo to Reading. Or the faster, (much) more expensive route of Southeastern to Waterloo, Barkerloo Line to Paddington, then GWR from Paddington to Reading.

It's highly likely that I'll need to be in Reading before 10, so I'm basing my costs on booking anytime fares. Additionally, as a mature student I think I'm eligible for a 16-25 railcard which will help cut down the costs a fair bit.

I've had a look on the brfares.com site to get a bit more information about the different tickets that are available on the route. There is one in particular which has me interested: an Anytime Day Return from Woolwich Arsenal to Reading Stations costing £16.75 with a railcard. It's issued by SW Trains, and the national rail enquiries site routes you via Waterloo as expected. However, the brfares site has it as Not Underground, but doesn't say anything about via Ascot. My question therefore is, if I bought that ticket, used it to travel to Waterloo East, then used oyster between Waterloo and Paddington, would I be able to use the paper ticket from Paddington to Reading?

Thanks for any advice you might have!

It depends on your interpretation of "not Underground" as a restriction. Is it a TOC restriction, preventing you from using London Underground Ltd. services (analogous to "XC only" for example)? Or is it a route restriction, preventing you from taking any route that involves the Underground?

The former interpretation makes more sense (what is the definition of "Underground" otherwise - does the East London Line count?). Also, any term capable of being interpreted in multiple ways should be interpreted in favour of the consumer - and in this case, the former interpretation is arguably less restrictive.

However, this still doesn't get you out of the woods. It's unclear whether it is permissible to travel on a particular route if your ticket's restrictions mean you couldn't possibly make the entire journey that way.

For example, I'm not sure you could use a Peterborough to London "Great Northern and Thameslink only" ticket starting at Cambridge. And if you had a Woolwich Arsenal to East Croydon ticket routed "not via London", I hardly think you could use it from Woolwich to New Cross, and then Elephant & Castle to East Croydon (using a different ticket or your own means to travel from New Cross to E&C via Blackfriars).

Overall, I would agree with @yorkie that even if it is legally permitted to do what you are proposing, it is likely to be very inconvenient and unpracticable in reality. You are likely to find yourself out of pocket (if not worse) on a very frequent basis, and if you take the matter up with GWR to reclaim additional costs, you will no doubt find the situation 'fixed' very rapidly.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It's highly likely that I'll need to be in Reading before 10

An Off-Peak Day Return from Paddington to Reading is £14.45 with your railcard. This can be used on departures from 09:30, meaning you could get the 09:32 from Paddington arriving in Reading at 09:55. You'd then need to use contactless between Woolwich and Paddington - if you were able to touch in off-peak in one direction this might be marginally cheaper than JonathanH's suggestion of splitting at Slough, which otherwise seems like the best suggestion so far.

Normally splitting at Slough doesn't work for travelling in the peak as the fast trains between Reading and Paddington don't stop at Slough in the peak, but as you would be traveling contra-peak this shouldn't be so much of an issue.

 

[BluePenguin]

An alternatively valid route is Waterloo to Reading changing at Basingstoke. The trains are much nicer and the journey times usually a lot more bearable than the slow stopping services at most times of day - depends on a good connection of course.

It has always been my preferred route to Reading whenever I want/need to avoid the tube trek for some reason. A lot cheaper too.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It's not a permitted route from London to Reading though, unless using a Boundary Zone ticket.

 

[JonathanH]

An alternatively valid route is Waterloo to Reading changing at Basingstoke. The trains are much nicer and the journey times usually a lot more bearable than the slow stopping services at most times of day.

It has always been my preferred route to Reading whenever I want/need to avoid the tube trek for some reason. A lot cheaper too.

Are you able to prove that is valid on a Woolwich Arsenal to Reading ticket? It is 48 miles from Waterloo to Basingstoke and 16 miles from Basingstoke to Reading. At 64 miles, that is almost 50% more than the distance from Waterloo to Reading (not that distance is how these things are validated).

The answer will be no. Reading to London is valid on routes RG and WX - ie Reading to Paddington direct (RG) and Reading to Waterloo direct via Richmond or Hounslow (WX)

Great route to take when there is disruption on the Paddington line and a dispensation to use alternative routes has been advertised but not valid under normal circumstances.

 

[betaman]

If you have deep enough pockets to pay for a good solicitor, plenty of time on your hands, and you are prepared to fight your cause, go for it!

If not, don't

If your train departs from a gated station at Paddington, you won't get beyond Paddington without being charged an excess fare

For previous discussions on this routeing, please: see https://www.google.com/search?q="not+underground"+site:Railforums.co.uk

I think it's fair to assume that if my pockets were that deep I wouldn't be trying to reduce the cost of the journey in the first place, so I won't be taking the risk!

Thank you for linking to the not underground discussions, I should really have searched for that before posting my initial question.

There are two ways of doing an peak time journey from Woolwich to Reading via Paddington cheaper than the £35.75 anytime day return with a railcard from Woolwich Arsenal to Reading for that route, albeit with significant restrictions:

A contactless single from Woolwich Arsenal to Reading is £13.40 provided you touch in before 0630. It is £28.40 for departures between 0630 and 0930 (and again between 1600 and 1900). Only the first touch should matter (although I don't know how the out of station interchange works on platforms 1, 2-5 or 8 at Paddington - the barriers on platform 6/7 split the journey and should not be used). There is no evening time restriction on the return journey.

That would be £26.40 return if you can work to those times - no railcard discount applies. It is not possible to use the Ascot route (between Reading and Feltham) if travelling on Contactless.

The other is to split at Slough but the train has to call at that station, limiting the number of options. However, there are half-hourly services between Paddington and Reading which do stop there and it will beat the journey time via Ascot. The anytime day return from Woolwich Arsenal to Slough is £13.45 with a railcard and from Slough to Reading is £11.40. That totals £24.85 for the return journey.

@MikeWh Do you know whether out of station interchange works as expected on the validation pads on platforms 1, 8 and 9 at Paddington and the barriers on platforms 2-5? The barriers on platforms 6/7 split journeys and would result in no through fare / the peak time fare being charged between 0630 and 0930.

Wow, I had alway naively assumed that a peak journey was charged on oyster if you touch in or out between 0630 and 0930. I probably favour that option rather than stopping as Slough, despite the slightly higher cost. That £9.35 saving over the anytime fare will certainly add up over the year, so thanks for the suggestion.

I understand the technical reasons why, but it's particularly frustrating that oyster system doesn't extend out to Reading. An off peak oyster fare with railcard discount from Woolwich Arsenal over to Reading would have been excellent!

The other thing that I'll be eligible for is an 18+ oyster card, though I expect that won't result in a saving unless I need to be in Reading more than 3 days a week or do any additional traveling during the week.

Do you know whether the Woolwich Arsenal to Paddington interchange will continue to work once Crossrail is open? Given it's much faster, despite having to change, they might not want people to do that once the full route is open?

Thanks for your help!

 

[BluePenguin]

I am honestly not knowledgeable enough to make that calculation and can only comment on my own others experience.

Not arguing with the above, but through tickets usually have more validity than from London terminals on their own. The line via Staines is usually very busy. I imagine passengers from the intermediate stations would prefer people not to use their line if heading to Reading too.

I never used to have an issue getting an itinerary for this route. Nor have I ever had trouble when my ticket was checked. Perhaps things have changed and now a spilt ticket is needed. Journey times are similar but convenience is a priority.

 

[JonathanH]

I imagine passengers from the intermediate stations would prefer people not to use their line if heading to Reading too.

Huh? You can make the same point about trains from Basingstoke to Reading as well.

Not arguing with the above, but through tickets usually have more validity than from London terminals on their own.

Not when they are routed 'London Not Underground'

I am honestly not knowledgeable enough to make that calculation and can only comment on my own others experience.

That's fair enough - especially if you have managed to get ticket selling websites to show an itinerary via Basingstoke since that will take some precedence if challenged. However, on at least a theoretical basis, referring to the official documentation, going via Basingstoke between London and Reading using tickets to Reading is not a valid route.

As an aside, convenience and quality of service is not a reason not to use the Waterloo to Reading line between those stations. I recall travelling once on the line and someone telling the RPI that the fare to Wokingham (that they hadn't paid) was not acceptable because the journey time was longer than that from London to Twyford and the fares should be cheaper.

 

[BluePenguin]

Huh? You can make the same point about trains from Basingstoke to Reading as well

You could if you mean the GWR stopper. Although as CrossCountry are non stop this not an issue. SWR suburban stations are much busier than the likes of Bramley and Mortimer which are villages in comparison.

Not when they are routed 'London Not Underground'

Which if travelling from Southeastern land into Waterloo East and out of Waterloo, you would not use the underground anyway.

That's fair enough - especially if you have managed to get ticket selling websites to show an itinerary via Basingstoke since that will take some precedence if challenged. However, on at least a theoretical basis, referring to the official documentation, going via Basingstoke between London and Reading using tickets to Reading is not a valid route.

As an aside, convenience and quality of service is not a reason not to use the Waterloo to Reading line between those stations. I recall travelling once on the line and someone telling the RPI that the fare to Wokingham (that they hadn't paid) was not acceptable because the journey time was longer than that from London to Twyford and the fares should be cheaper.

Honestly, I am very surprised to hear that it is not officially valid. Maybe the rules have changed. Whether I have been lucky in the past when having my ticket checked or the staff allow it because they deem it reasonable, nobody knows. I will be more careful next time I go to Reading - saving 20 minutes is not worth risking for a penalty fare. Thanks for the helpful nugget of information I guess. TrainSplit may be worth paying a visit

That person helping the RPI prompting them with that information may wish to be careful in the future. Passengers can react badly to confrontation. The fare evader at least did not get away without paying.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

If your train departs from a gated station at Paddington, you won't get beyond Paddington without being charged an excess fare

You won't get past the gates at Paddington with a valid ticket, let alone that one!

 

[hkstudent]

There are two ways of doing an peak time journey from Woolwich to Reading via Paddington cheaper than the £35.75 anytime day return with a railcard from Woolwich Arsenal to Reading for that route, albeit with significant restrictions:

A contactless single from Woolwich Arsenal to Reading is £13.40 provided you touch in before 0630. It is £28.40 for departures between 0630 and 0930 (and again between 1600 and 1900). Only the first touch should matter (although I don't know how the out of station interchange works on platforms 1, 2-5 or 8 at Paddington - the barriers on platform 6/7 split the journey and should not be used). There is no evening time restriction on the return journey.

That would be £26.80 return if you can work to those times - no railcard discount applies. It is not possible to use the Ascot route (between Reading and Feltham) if travelling on Contactless.

The other is to split at Slough but the train has to call at that station, limiting the number of options. However, there are half-hourly services between Paddington and Reading which do stop there and it will beat the journey time via Ascot. The anytime day return from Woolwich Arsenal to Slough is £13.45 with a railcard and from Slough to Reading is £11.40. That totals £24.85 for the return journey.

@MikeWh Do you know whether out of station interchange works as expected on the validation pads on platforms 1, 8 and 9 at Paddington and the barriers on platforms 2-5? The barriers on platforms 6/7 split journeys and would result in no through fare / the peak time fare being charged between 0630 and 0930.

For Platform 1 validator, that doesn't break the journey.
The journey will be treated as a through journey. (I tried that last summer).

BTW, I have messaged OP an Off-Peak ticket that is valid to depart London after 0830 and would be slightly cheaper.
(something to ask: does PU tickets allows a break of journey on the outward journey? BRFARES indicated there is, but not on NR site)

 

[Paul Kelly]

does PU tickets allows a break of journey on the outward journey? BRFARES indicated there is, but not on NR site

Restriction code PU does not preclude a break of journey, but ticket types OPS and OPR (Chiltern Super Off-Peak) do. However this restriction is not advertised in many places.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Restriction code PU does not preclude a break of journey, but ticket types OPS and OPR (Chiltern Super Off-Peak) do. However this restriction is not advertised in many places.

I believe the apparent BoJ restriction stems from the fact that London Northwestern (and London Midland before them) use the same ticket type for their Super Off-Peak tickets, and I'm reasonably confident that Chiltern staff wouldn't enforce it.

 

[mangyiscute]

I will just say one thing, as someone who lives in reading and often travels to London, do not take the Waterloo train, it is painfully slow compared to the paddington

 

[hkstudent]

I believe the apparent BoJ restriction stems from the fact that London Northwestern (and London Midland before them) use the same ticket type for their Super Off-Peak tickets, and I'm reasonably confident that Chiltern staff wouldn't enforce it.

I am thinking would GWR staff enforce that...