Season ticket as part of a combination of tickets for one journey

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Lee_Again, 27 Oct 2011.

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  1. Lee_Again

    Lee_Again Member

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    As I understand it, if you have a season, you are able to purchase another ticket to extend your journey without the train actually having to stop at the joining point. This, I think, is different to using two tickets for one journey.

    So, I have three questions...

    Assume that I have a Stevenage to Kings Cross monthly season.

    1 - If travelling from York, can I buy an Advance ticket from York to Stevenage, even though the train may not call at Stevenage. I realise that if the train is due to stop then there is not an issue.

    Now, if I can't buy an Advance..

    2 - What about Off-Peak?
    The T&C's say...
    OUTWARD SOUTHBOUND (codes 1U or 9U): On any train timed to arrive in London King's Cross at 10.08 or later, Monday-Friday.

    I think this also means Stevenage because...
    Most East Coast Super off-Peak tickets do not allow travel before 09.30 Monday-Friday. (See different conditions below for journeys to/from/via Stevenage and London)

    So if my train passes Stevenage at 10.00 but arrives London at 10.30(i.e. after 10.08) can I buy an off-peak York > Stevenage?

    3 - and going the other way
    OUTWARD NORTHBOUND (code 1V): On any train from London King's Cross except those timed to depart 06.45-07.59 and 15.59-17.45 inclusive, Monday-Friday.

    Can I board a train at Kings Cross at 17.30 (peak-but season covers that) that passes Stevenage at 17.50 (now off-peak)

    Thanks in advance
    Lee
     
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  3. bengolding

    bengolding Member

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    I doubt this. Surely if you use an Advance ticket on a train which you are not booked on and which does not stop at Stevenage, this would make your combination invalid? I think only walk-up tickets are applicable for the York-Stevenage example you quote plus your season.
     
  4. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    It all comes under Condition 19 of the National Conditions of Carriage. You can use more than one ticket to make a longer journey provided that together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies.

    • They are zonal tickets
    • The train stops at the station where they change over
    • One is a season ticket (see the NRCoC for a definition) and the other(s) is/are not.

    Provided the advance is 'rte EC & Connections' or has a geographic route this is not an issue, if the ticket is EC only the train would have to stop at Stevenage (as you cannot book an advance to a station where the train for the last leg does not stop there)

    The restriction would apply to trains arriving in London, regardless of you going there or not (unless there is a specific easement noted), however there may be restrictions on travelling to Stevenage aswell (I haven't checked the restriction codes).

    The same applies as above, if the restriction is listed for trains departing Kings Cross it would apply to the ticket regardless of where you start using it.
     
  5. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    1. If you are booked on a reservable train from Peterborough (presumably) to Stevenage, then no - you must travel on the reserved train. If it's a non-reservable train, then arguably it could be done, but internal guidelines specify that AP travel is not permitted on a reservable service without a reservation. I'd certainly not risk it without having a word with the guard before arriving at Peterborough (or wherever the booked change is)

    2. Restriction 1U and 9U restricts trains arriving in London at or after 1008 and Stevenage at or after 0957. I would interpret this to mean that you must not arrive in London before 1008 and, if your train stops in Stevenage, you must not arrive there before 0957.

    I have wondered the same thing (in my case splitting at Didcot) so I'd welcome others' thoughts.

    3. No. The ticket restrictions restrict departures from London between 1558-1746, and Stevenage between 1617-1755.

    Again, I would interpret this to mean that the ticket is not valid if the train departs London between 1558-1746 (if it's non-stop through Stevenage; obviously the relevant times apply if it stops at Stevenage).

    --

    One more thought - it might be possible to reduce the price and avoid some of the restrictions by further splitting. Remember, you don't need to call at any of the 'changeover' points when combining a Season with single/return tickets (for the time being; ATOC probably have their eyes on changing this).
     
  6. Lee_Again

    Lee_Again Member

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    I wasn't asking about traveling on a train I hadn't booked. I know you can't do that.
    I am asking 'is it possible to book a ticket on a service where the train doesn't stop'?

    i.e book on to the 12.00 non stop service from York to Kings Cross but only buying a ticket for the York>Stevenage sector. My season convering the rest.
     
  7. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    If it's Advance Purchase then that would be a no. There would be no Advance Purchase fares available to stations where the service doesn't stop. You can of course buy a walk-up ticket to Stevenage and use it in combination with your season. Make this purchase at a station and you should also be able to get a seat reservation for the whole journey.
     
  8. Lee_Again

    Lee_Again Member

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    Yes, but the ticket wouldn't be from Kings Cross. My ticket would be from Stevenage.

    Off Peak is valid from Stevenage after 17.55. If I leave Kings Cross at 17.40 (i.e. before the 17.45 cut off) my season is valid (all trains, no time restrcitions). This train would pass through Stevenage at about 17.59 (i.e. after 17.55) so, my question is, can I but an off-peak ticket to York?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Yes, but my walk up ticket, peak or off peak. That's the question.

    I think Hairyhandedfool answered about the Advance. It seems they are not valid:( as I thought would be the case. It's the peak/off-peak issue that concerns me now.
     
  9. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I don't think you're reading the whole of Off-Peak validity code. Stevenage - York takes validity code 1V

    This code starts by saying that Outward travel northbound is valid by any train scheduled to depart London Terminals (except as shown below) before 06:45, between 07:59 and 15:58 inclusive & at or after 17:46. That is the default position.

    There are then nine exceptions, one of which is for Stevenage. Outward travel northbound is valid by any train scheduled to depart Stevenage before 07:15, between 08:15 and 16:17 inclusive & at or after 17:55.

    But a train which passes through Stevenage without stopping is not scheduled to depart Stevenage at all. Therefore the exception does not apply. Therefore the part of validity code 1V which does apply is the part I have shown in blue above.
    It's not quite that they're not valid, more that the train companies don't set any quota for Advance Stevenage - York tickets on trains which don't stop at Stevenage. I don't think many people would expect such a quota.
     
  10. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    As I understood it the idea was to book on a service with a connexion onto a Stevenage stopper (eg at Peterborough). The connecting service would presumably be unreserved and so could potentially be combined with the Season, remaining on the same train.

     
  11. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Regardless of where the ticket is to or from, if the restriction is from Kings Cross, it does not matter what time it leaves or passes through Stevenage, only what time it leaves Kings Cross.
     
  12. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    On which portion of a ticket, and from which origin/destination?

    If you comply with the restriction of the ticket held, then it's valid, but as others have said you must read the restrictions carefully and ensure you comply with them, as otherwise you could be charged an excess to the appropriate fare (which may be an Anytime fare) and this would apply to both outward & return portions (if a return ticket was held).
     
  13. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    On some flows it's cheaper to sell a new single ticket (especially up the WCML) - the Manual advises staff to do this if appropriate, so do ask what the single cost would be! (If it happens to you!)
     
  14. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    This is an important point.

    A York-Stevenage SVR takes 1U/9U:

    Return travel NORTHBOUND:
    At any time.

    A Stevenage-York SVR takes 1V:

    Outward travel NORTHBOUND:
    By any train scheduled to depart:
    London Terminals: Before 06:45, between 07:59 and 15:58 inclusive & at or after 17:46.
    Stevenage: Before 07:15, between 08:15 and 16:17 inclusive & at or after 17:55

    This means that, travelling north from London:
    - if you're using the return portion of a YRK>SVG SVR, you're valid on any service.
    - if you're using the outward portion of a SVG>YRK SVR, you can only travel on services departing London after 1745, unless the train departs Stevenage after 1754 (passing through is not relevant).


    As in this case - the excess would be £124, and a Stevenage-York SOS is £99.50. edit: Correct excess is £71.20, so cheaper than a new single in this case. My calculation was for a SSR - in this instance a new SOS would be cheaper than the excess.
     
    Last edited: 28 Oct 2011
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