Season ticket - break of journey

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by SA_900, 17 Feb 2017.

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  1. SA_900

    SA_900 Member

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    Hold a season ticket for Redhill to London Terminals.

    Is Denmark Hill classed as an intermediate station?

    And am I entitled to make an unlimited number of journeys to any intermediate station?

    Because my Southern smartcard didn't work at Denmark Hill and I was told to buy a return to London Bridge (my origin that day).
     
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Season tickets are valid for unlimited journeys either full or in part over any Permitted Route (if not restricted with a route on the ticket). Break of journey is not directly relevant, because each time you travel it's just a new journey.

    However, looking at a map, I can't see why Denmark Hill would be on a Permitted Route between London Terminals and Redhill, it makes no sense at all.
     
  3. SA_900

    SA_900 Member

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    Thanks- so it's not valid? Hospital trust I work at is part based there and part based in central London. My origin was actually from London Blackfriars.
     
  4. robbeech

    robbeech Member

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    Most journey planners will happily give you an itinerary with changes at Clapham Junction and Denmark Hill itself to London Terminals, Victoria in this case so i don't see why not in theory. To/From London Bridge is likely pushing it a bit more although as said, each bit is a new journey.

    Is Blackfriars acceptable as London Terminals from Redhill?
     
    Last edited: 17 Feb 2017
  5. Joe Paxton

    Joe Paxton Member

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    Redhill - East Croydon - Peckham Rye - Victoria/Blackfriars (passing through Denmark Hill) ?
     
    Last edited: 17 Feb 2017
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I don't know for certain if it's a Permitted Route on a technicality or not - to me it doesn't make sense, but there are anomalies in the Routeing Guide of course.

    But in general the way it works for a point to point season is you generate the list of permitted routes for the full journey, and can make any partial journey over any of those routes.
     
  7. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    National Rail enquiries shows Clapham Junction - Denmark Hill - Elephant and Castle as a valid route.
     
  8. SA_900

    SA_900 Member

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    This would be good news. But also highlights why I made a mistake getting a smartcard. No one seems to have any idea what ticket you actually hold (e.g. for rail replacement busses or non-Southern services).
     
  9. SA_900

    SA_900 Member

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    Yes, London Blackfriars does seemed to be classed as one of the London Terminals for the purposes of my ticket.
     
  10. Romilly

    Romilly Established Member

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    I certainly cannot come up with itineraries via Denmark Hill for a Redhill to London Terminals ticket, but can produce itineraries for that ticket via Loughborough Junction station which, on the ground, is not far from Denmark Hill station: the hospital is between the two stations.

    This squares with the Routeing Guide. The only maps valid for a Redhill-London ticket are LB and VB, and neither shows a route through Denmark Hill (but LB does show a route through Loughborough Junction - and also a route through Peckham Rye).
     
    Last edited: 17 Feb 2017
  11. Deepgreen

    Deepgreen Established Member

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    Yes - I do it almost daily.
     
  12. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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    If you were starting from Croydon you could get a ticket to Denmark Hill routed "London Not Und" for the same price as the London Terminals ticket, which would be indisputably valid to both London and Denmark Hill. Unfortunately the only Redhill - Denmark Hill season is routed Not Via London.

    I think you can argue you were wrongly charged a fare from London - Denmark Hill, the correct excess due should have been Peckham Rye - Denmark Hill.
     
  13. soil

    soil Established Member

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    Redhill - London is mapped LB and VB.

    The valid routes are Victoria - Herne Hill (VB), and Victoria/Waterloo - Clapham Junction (LB), London Bridge - Peckham Rye (LB), London Bridge - New Cross Gate (LB), Blackfriars - Herne Hill (LB).

    Denmark Hill is not on either map.

    As a shortest route, Blackfriars - Redhill is 20.99 miles according to RJIS, or 20.5 according to the timetable. Redhill - Denmark Hill - Blackfriars 22.5 miles/22.32 miles. So it's valid on that basis.

    Hence Denmark Hill - London Bridge is valid on this ticket.
     
  14. SA_900

    SA_900 Member

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    !!! Now to convince the gate staff...
     
  15. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Last edited: 17 Feb 2017
  16. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I've had multiple passes and season tickets valid at Denmark Hill. Not a single one of works the barriers at Denmark Hill as the powers that be have set all of them to error 57 "Ticket Not Valid at this location"

    It's one of those mysterious, nonsensical things the railways do that make no sense. The station cannot cope with the explosion in passenger numbers both incoming and outgoing in the peaks - it's so bad that trains have to dwell longer to allow the bottlenecks on the narrow platforms and steps to clear so people can get off.

    The railway's way of dealing with this is to set the 3 or so barriers at the only exit to reject valid tickets and smartcards which are unequivocally valid there. They also love changing platforms at a moment's notice - a long term problem that nothing effective has been done to resolve. This causes people to wait on the bridge and steps which further exacerbates the problem. I've even missed trains because of the notice of less than a minute combined with the crowding. You can't blame people for blocking the steps, though this isn't practical given well over 100 people can be waiting for each train.

    It's baffling as to why those in charge of the station choose to set the barriers like that - and why the railways can't sort out something as basic as correct information on what platform the punters can take their train from.
     
    Last edited: 17 Feb 2017
  17. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    If exiting, I'd explain that I am entitled to exit the station and that I will be doing so, and if they claim the ticket was not valid I'd ask them what routes are valid. If necessary it could be dealt with by contacting the police if they falsely imprisoned you within the station.

    However entering is tricky, but I'd ask for something in writing. If they refused, I'd make notes and ask them to provide a verbal statement to include in my complaint.

    You have to be assertive with them. Never swear at them, no matter how provocative they are. But don't give in either.
     
  18. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I know the staff there and I'd seriously doubt any issues of this nature would crop up with them.
     
  19. soil

    soil Established Member

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    Bit tricky.

    Redhill - Blackfriars is 20.99 miles

    However Redhill - London Bridge is 20.58 miles

    If you take the Denmark Hill - Blackfriars at 3.81 miles, that gives 16.77 based on a London Bridge closest London Terminal miles, add 3 miles, which gives 19.77 miles max

    19.33 miles is:

    Redhill - Norwood Junction
    Norwood Junction - Tulse Hill
    Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye
    Peckham Rye - Blackfriars

    19.88 miles is
    Redhill - Streatham Common (one daily or via East Croydon)
    Streatham Common - Peckham Rye
    Peckham Rye - Blackfriars

    NR says no for the Streatham route

    http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/RDH/BFR/230217/0400/dep?via=East_Dulwich (check the 05:49 taking 1 hr 27)

    presumably based on the closer London terminal.

    Getting it to route via both Crystal Palace and East Dulwich is harder as you only get one via point.
     
  20. SA_900

    SA_900 Member

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    Thanks RJ, Soil, Yorkie et al. Used it today with no problem (bar the usual error message). Was waved through after a only a brief explanation - don't think staff are able to read the smartcards. Hopefully she'll remember me next time.
     
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