Season Ticket Changeover calculations?

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Mcr Warrior

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:?: Would it be more economical, in the following circumstances, to go for a Season Ticket changeover (to some random alternative flow with a much lower fare, e.g. Newhaven Town -> Newhaven Harbour), as opposed to just requesting a straight refund, in the following circumstances?

Annual Gold Card Travelcard (Std) purchased 28DEC2011, costing £3972-00.

Proposed refund date / changeover date 19MAR2012.

(Not sure what a Newhaven Town - Newhaven Harbour annual season would have been if bought on 28DEC2011, it's currently £148.00 (Std)).
 
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:?: Would it be more economical, in the following circumstances, to go for a Season Ticket changeover (to some random alternative flow with a much lower fare, e.g. Newhaven Town -> Newhaven Harbour), as opposed to just requesting a straight refund, in the following circumstances?

Annual Gold Card Travelcard (Std) purchased 28DEC2011, costing £3972-00.

Proposed refund date / changeover date 19MAR2012.

(Not sure what a Newhaven Town - Newhaven Harbour annual season would have been if bought on 28DEC2011, it's currently £148.00 (Std)).

£140.00

What is the ticket you currently hold?
 

hairyhandedfool

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My very rough calculations are that a changeover would leave you with a Goldcard + £2823.82 and a refund would give you back £2726.40.
 

rdwarr

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If you go for the changeover be sure to allow plenty of time. I did one last month which involved:
1) A 45-minute session at King's Cross to get it done
2) The lady from King's Cross coming round my house to say that there had been a mistake
3) Another 15-minute visit to KGX to sort it
I doubt smaller booking offices would have much of a clue. My brother was saying that they never used to do them the same day at Peterborough because of the calculations involved.
 

iphone76

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I changed over my annual ticket a couple of weeks ago at Wickford. I dropped the form off on a Thursday night, and picked it up on Sunday afternoon after paying some extra. (I was changing from Wickford to Battlesbridge).

No hassles at all.

I have also done what you are proposing when I got made redundant and changed over my ticket to Southend Vic to Prittlewell rather than Wickford to London. (I didn't think to go for a cheaper option - doh!). I got more back changing over than getting a refund, plus I had a goldcard for when I travelled upto London for interviews, nights out, etc.
 

tony_mac

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The instructions suggest that a changeover is appropriate where a person has moved or changed jobs.

I am a little concerned that switching to a well-known very low value ticket is such an obvious attempt to circumvent the refund rules that it could be problematic.
And, the more that staff see 'loopholes' being 'abused', then the more likely they are to be closed in future - and possibly helping to remove a discretionary facility that other passengers have a genuine need of.
 

rdwarr

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I changed over my annual ticket a couple of weeks ago at Wickford. I dropped the form off on a Thursday night, and picked it up on Sunday afternoon after paying some extra. (I was changing from Wickford to Battlesbridge).

No hassles at all.

I didn't know there was a form. :oops:
 

barrykas

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The one thing that I'm unsure of when it comes to change-overs is what figures to use to calculate a second (or third or...) one.

Logic suggests that you treat the "new" ticket as if it had the same period of validity as their original ticket, thus retaining the same base rate as you used to calculate the charge for the "new" one.

So if, for example, their original ticket was an Annual London - Cambridge ticket, and they changed it for a Travelcard and now wanted to change to a Travelcard from Stansted instead, you'd ignore the price on the change-over and treat it as if it was an Annual.

Or am I talking rubbish? (Fortunately, this scenario doesn't come up very often).

Cheers,

Barry
 

hairyhandedfool

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You always use the total value of the ticket, not what is printed on it. The value on the ticket is the remaining value at the time of changeover.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I didn't know there was a form. :oops:

Some machines fill the forms out for you, so you may not be aware of them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The instructions suggest that a changeover is appropriate where a person has moved or changed jobs.

I am a little concerned that switching to a well-known very low value ticket is such an obvious attempt to circumvent the refund rules that it could be problematic.
And, the more that staff see 'loopholes' being 'abused', then the more likely they are to be closed in future - and possibly helping to remove a discretionary facility that other passengers have a genuine need of.

The frontline staff probably couldn't give a monkeys, the people in head office might though.
 

PavlosA

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Could I ask another question on changeovers?

As I mentioned on another thread, our corporate season ticket provider states that all season changeovers involving Oysters must be done as refund/reorder (or something) where a new annual ticket is ordered with a new end date, then when produced, the old ticket is returned for pro-rata refund (not losing the annual discount). I've read in places that this is how some people read the NRCOC paragraph 37...

Q1. Is this process possible for paper to paper seasons? Eg. Annual starts 01-JAN-12, new journey purchased 1-JUL-12 to 30-JUN-13. Old ticket sent in for refund, receiving 50% of cost back.

Q2. What would happen in the following circumstance?

Oyster annual R1234 purchased with start date 01-JAN-12. New Oyster annual R12 purchased with start date 01-JUL-12. Old Oyster submitted for refund, refund received 50% of original ticket price. New ticket surrendered 01-OCT-12.

I assume the new ticket would be dealt with as a normal surrender, but would there be an issue with the fact a pro-rata refund had been given on the old ticket?

Would this process (if I'm right in the way it works) mean it would almost always be cheaper to do this type of ticket change, then apply for a refund on the new ticket?

Have I lost my mind?

Paragraph 37 for reference:

37. Changing one Season Ticket for another

If you hand in a Season Ticket which was valid for one month or more when issued and then buy another Season Ticket for a different journey, you will be entitled to a refund on the original ticket, calculated pro rata to the number of days of validity remaining on the date the ticket is handed in. However, the validity of the new ticket must start on the day after the original ticket is handed in and must be for a period that is at least as long as that of the original ticket when it was issued. You will not have to pay an administrative charge.

If you hand in an Electronic Ticket, the new ticket may only be issued at a station which
issues Electronic Tickets.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Q1. Is this process possible for paper to paper seasons? Eg. Annual starts 01-JAN-12, new journey purchased 1-JUL-12 to 30-JUN-13. Old ticket sent in for refund, receiving 50% of cost back.

This is essentially the process regardless of who does it, however stations will take the amount of refund off of the amount owed for the new ticket at the time the new ticket is issued, meaning the passenger has only to afford the difference.

Q2. What would happen in the following circumstance?

Oyster annual R1234 purchased with start date 01-JAN-12. New Oyster annual R12 purchased with start date 01-JUL-12. Old Oyster submitted for refund, refund received 50% of original ticket price. New ticket surrendered 01-OCT-12.

I assume the new ticket would be dealt with as a normal surrender, but would there be an issue with the fact a pro-rata refund had been given on the old ticket?

Would this process (if I'm right in the way it works) mean it would almost always be cheaper to do this type of ticket change, then apply for a refund on the new ticket?....

Season refunds (surrendered ticket) are calculated the same way for changeovers and none changeovers. The total amount paid is calculated, the total amount that should have been paid for the length of use is calculated (including the changeover), the difference is the refund value.

So any savings made in the changeover would be reflected in the final refund.

EDIT:

So, very approximately, using your example (with this year's prices).

The passenger pays £1672 for the yearly and received a refund of £252 for the changeover.
The value of a nine month season would have been about £1444.70 and the changeover would have produced a refund in the region of £144.64

The refund is therefore around £1420-£1300.06-£10 (admin fee) which is £109.94.
 
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barrykas

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Could I ask another question on changeovers?

Q1. Is this process possible for paper to paper seasons? Eg. Annual starts 01-JAN-12, new journey purchased 1-JUL-12 to 30-JUN-13. Old ticket sent in for refund, receiving 50% of cost back.

A change-over can only be done where the expiry date is the same as that of the original ticket. In this scenario, you'd be charged for six months (23.04 times the weekly rate for the original ticket) less an admin fee, and the new ticket would be charged at the prevailing rate, whereas a change-over is charged at the rate that applied when the original ticket was purchased.

Q2. What would happen in the following circumstance?

Oyster annual R1234 purchased with start date 01-JAN-12. New Oyster annual R12 purchased with start date 01-JUL-12. Old Oyster submitted for refund, refund received 50% of original ticket price. New ticket surrendered 01-OCT-12.

If done as a change-over, you'd get a refund of £239.20 at the point of change-over, that being the difference between an Annual Zone 1-2 and Zone 1-4 Travelcard expiring on 31st December 2012.

If you then submitted the change-over for a refund on 1st October (last used 30th September, presumably) you'd get a further refund of £104.02, giving a total refund of £343.22.

As a refund and reissue, the initial refund would be £658.20, but the new ticket would cost £1168, then the refund on the new ticket would be £821.60, for an overall refund value of £311.80.

Would this process (if I'm right in the way it works) mean it would almost always be cheaper to do this type of ticket change, then apply for a refund on the new ticket?

Almost always, given you'd only incur one admin fee if you did a change-over and then subsequent refund, whereas doing a refund and reissue and then a subsequent refund incurs two admin fees.

Cheers,

Barry
 

PavlosA

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Sorry, I think I'm explaining myself in a way only a layman could. Will get some examples together and come back when I have a bit of time...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi all

Without having proper examples that would explain my point, I do have one urgent query on a refund/reorder Oyster that gets surrendered…

Original Oyster
Start date = 21/10/2011
Zones = R1234
Cost = £1576

New Oyster
Start date = 30/04/2012
Zones = R12
Cost = £1168
Surrender date = 29/05/2012


Refund/reorder process:

Original ticket 21/10/11 - 20/10/12
Cost = £1576
Last used date 29/04/12
Days remaining 30/04/12 - 20/10/12 = 175 days
Gross refund due = £756
Admin fee = £10
Net refund due = £746
Total cost 21/10/11 - 29/04/12 = £1576 - £746 = £830

New ticket 30/04/12 - 29/04/13
Cost = £1168
Surrender date 29/05/12
Gross refund due = £1055.80
Admin fee = £10
Net refund due: £1045.80
Total cost 30/04/12 - 29/05/12 = £1168 - £1045.80 = £122.20

Total cost 21/10/11 to 29/05/12 = £830 + £122.20 = £952.20

Now my feeling is that this process would actuall be cheaper than if the standard changeover process was followed - ie changeover to R12 date 30/04/12 then surrender on 29/05/12, because the annual discount is saved for the portion 21/10/12 to 29/04/12 using this process. Would someone be able to tell me what the refund would be on a ticket processed under the normal process?

Is this process allowed with normal tickets?
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Refunds/Changeovers for Travelcards on Oyster should be the same as for paper tickets.

However, I can't match your figures.

21/10/11 - 29/04/12 is 192 days (as it is a leap year)
30/04/12 - 20/10/12 is 174 days (366-192)

The used changeover value for a 1-4 would be £826.75 by my maths.....

(1576/366)x192=826.75

....leaving a refund value of £749.25.

I must stress however that this process is not how a ticket office does it. A ticket office would changeover the whole year (at the fare from when you bought the ticket) rather than work out a changeover refund and sell a new ticket.

A ticket office would charge as follows (bear in mind I'm doing this on paper).....

21/10/11 - 29/04/12 is 192 days (as it is a leap year)
30/04/12 - 20/10/12 is 174 days (366-192)

The used changeover value for a 1-4 would be £826.75....

(1576/366)x192=826.75

....leaving a refund value of £749.25.

The used changeover value for a 1-2 would be £579.15....

(1104/366)x192=579.15

....Leaving a refund value of £524.85

The total to refund is therefore £269.40.

Handing the changeover in 30 days later would be worked out in a slightly more complex fashion. The total paid for the year was £1306.60 (£1576 - £269.40). the total for the journeys made would be....

Used changeover value for 1-4 (7 months 9 days)

(1094.60/222)x192=946.56

Refund value for 1-4: 1094.6-946.56=148.04

Used changeover value for 1-2 (7 months 9 days)

(766.80/222)x192=662.40

Refund value for 1-2: 766.80-662.40=104.4

Refund due from Changeover: 148.04-104.4=43.64

....approximately £1050.96, meaning the total refund due would be....

£1306.60 - £1050.96 = £255.64

....but the total actually paid would be £1050.96, if my maths is right.

This means that, in this case, the process you post is cheaper, by £100 or so, despite the higher new fare being used for the new ticket, however, I can't say this is how it will be in all cases (and my maths could still be wrong).
 

PavlosA

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I'm not getting any less confused about Travelcards on Oyster, but I wonder if I may ask another question.

Are there particular terms of use associated with Travelcards on Oyster? In particular, changeovers/refund&reissue. I see the National Rail CoC covers these in paragraph 37. Nothing is mentioned in either the TfL CoC or the Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail.

Does the NR CoC govern travelcards in any format?

Also, the NR CoC appears to explain refund & reissue situations, ie the new ticket must be at least as long as the old ticket when it was originally issued. So the general NR changeover process or pro-rata calcs for both tickets and keeping the same end date - is that just something offered, but not strictly written down anywhere?
 

barrykas

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Are there particular terms of use associated with Travelcards on Oyster? In particular, changeovers/refund&reissue. I see the National Rail CoC covers these in paragraph 37. Nothing is mentioned in either the TfL CoC or the Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail.

If a Travelcard/Season is issued by TfL, rather than a TOC, the passenger has to be referred to them if they want a refund or change-over, and their rules apply.

Also, the NR CoC appears to explain refund & reissue situations, ie the new ticket must be at least as long as the old ticket when it was originally issued. So the general NR changeover process or pro-rata calcs for both tickets and keeping the same end date - is that just something offered, but not strictly written down anywhere?

The CoC version is slightly simplified from the actual process (and incorrect, given the new ticket is issued at the same time as the old one is surrendered, so starts immediately).

Change-overs are calculated based on the notional number of days the original ticket was valid, using the fares that applied when it was issued. One month is deemed to be 30 days long and one year is 365 days, regardless of whether it's a leap year.

So if the original ticket was valid for 1 month 17 days, the notional validity will be 47 days. If it was valid for 3 months 6 days, it'll be 96 days, and so on.

The value of the credit for the original ticket and charge for the new ticket use the number of calendar days from the date you wish the new ticket to start to the expiry date of the original ticket.

For a refund, on the other hand, you take the number of months and days the ticket's been used for, work out the cost of a ticket for that period, deduct it from the original price paid, then deduct a £10 admin fee.

There's a lookup table that gives the multiplication factor to be used in conjunction with the weekly price, though from 10 months 13 days you pay the same price as an Annual. There's also an associated formula to calculate the period factor, though it falls apart after 10 months 13 days:

p = 3.84m + 0.64f + 0.13d

Where p is the period factor, m is the number of whole months, f is the number of five day periods (maximum 6), and d is the odd number of days (maximum 4).

Cheers,

Barry
 
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