Season Ticket Changeover - proof of living/working in area

[James12345AA]

Hi,

I recently applied for a Season Ticket Changeover.

The TOC has informed me that 'for the season ticket changeover we would need some proof of you living or working in the area, because of the nature of the request.'

Having examined the National Rail Conditions of Travel and the TOC's own conditions, as well as previous threads on this website, I do not believe that I am obliged to provide the requested proof.

Does anyone have any knowledge of this area? How would you respond to the TOC? My feeling is to say that I am unable to provide such proof for reasons of confidentiality.

 

[causton]

Never heard of that before!

I am assuming you might be getting a changeover to a cheapeer season ticket as it works out better than a refund?

But there is no requirement to actually live in the area, work in the area or even use the new season ticket... so they don't have much reason to deny you unless they suspect you are already committing fraud or something? Very dodgy for them...

Edit: Just to clarify, where did this come from? People at a station, or the TOC head office? If it was by a clerk or supervisor at a station, I would ask customer relations of the TOC to determine the real process.

 

[James12345AA]

Never heard of that before!

I am assuming you might be getting a changeover to a cheapeer season ticket as it works out better than a refund?

But there is no requirement to actually live in the area, work in the area or even use the new season ticket... so they don't have much reason to deny you unless they suspect you are already committing fraud or something? Very dodgy for them...

Edit: Just to clarify, where did this come from? People at a station, or the TOC head office? If it was by a clerk or supervisor at a station, I would ask customer relations of the TOC to determine the real process.

Thanks for your quick reply.

Yes exactly and the request for proof was from the TOC head office accounts team by email.

 

[OwlMan]

Technically you can only changeover a season ticket if If you move house, change your place of work or wish to change the class of travel.

From T & Cs Season tickets http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx

'Changeovers'

• If you move house, change your place of work or wish to change the class of travel, you may apply to exchange any Season Ticket with at least 7 days remaining, for one with the same expiry date for your new journey or class. This is called a changeover.
• A changeover may be applied for at the rail ticket office where the original ticket was issued or at any station relevant to the new journey. The new journey Season Ticket is a continuous renewal and it must start on the day following surrender of the original ticket. Any additional charge or refund will be based on the ticket prices when the original Season Ticket was bought, pro rata to the periods before and after the changeover.
• No administration charge is made. Any ticket that has already been exchanged in this way may be accepted for further exchanges if necessary.

 

[James12345AA]

Technically you can only changeover a season ticket if If you move house, change your place of work or wish to change the class of travel.

For sure. But there is no stated requirement in the conditions to provide proof - unlike say for refunds on medical grounds.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

NRCoT 41 gives you the right to a season ticket changeover. This is not conditional on proof of any situational change. Any requirement to produce evidence of a change is not compliant with the contract you have entered into, and any refusal to provide a changeover, because you don't/can't provide unnecessary evidence, leaves the train company liable to a claim for damages and/or debt, depending on the situation.

Buy alternative tickets for your changed-over route (if it's a true changeover) and then recover the cost of this from the train company. If the season ticket cost was more than £100 and you paid any of this by credit card, you can make any claims against the credit card provider. They will be jointly and severally liable and you have recourse to the Financial Ombudsman Service if they don't deal with things properly.

 

[James12345AA]

NRCoT 41 gives you the right to a season ticket changeover. This is not conditional on proof of any situational change. Any requirement to produce evidence of a change is not compliant with the contract you have entered into, and any refusal to provide a changeover, because you don't/can't provide unnecessary evidence, leaves the train company liable to a claim for damages and/or debt, depending on the situation.

I would ensure you are fully documenting your attempts to get the changeover, preferably filming or audio-recording them (making clear that you are doing so when you go to the counter). Get the name of any staff member(s) who refuse(s) to provide the changeover without the unnecessary evidence.

Buy alternative tickets for your changed-over route (if it's a true changeover) and then recover the cost of this from the train company. If the season ticket cost was more than £100 and you paid any of this by credit card, you can make any claims against the credit card provider. They will be jointly and severally liable and you have recourse to the Financial Ombudsman Service if they don't deal with things properly.

That's really useful - thanks.

All communication is in writing, by email.

I have responded to their request for proof by stating that I do not believe I am contractually obliged to provide such proof. If they continue to request proof I will step the tone of the emails up!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That's really useful - thanks.

All communication is in writing, by email.

I have responded to their request for proof by stating that I do not believe I am contractually obliged to provide such proof.

Is it a true changeover you're after, or are you after an effective pro-rata refund by getting a changeover refund to a very cheap season ticket (e.g. on an annual season ticket, where towards the second half of the validity you would only get a very small refund)?

Whilst it is entirely your contractual right to obtain the latter, some TOCs and ticket offices definitely aren't happy at giving you it.

 

[James12345AA]

Update - they're escalating my case to management.

 

[PeterC]

Going back to the question does it make a difference if the ticket was purchased with an employer's cheque (as were most of my annuals over the years) or provided through the employer?

 

[Haywain]

Going back to the question does it make a difference if the ticket was purchased with an employer's cheque (as were most of my annuals over the years) or provided through the employer?

If a refund is due it should be paid to the same method as the original purchase payment, so if it was paid by cheque the refund must be paid to the same account (where a cheque was used, BACS can be used for the refund).

 

[Hadders]

There is no requirement to provide proof of residence or work when purchasing a season ticket.

 

[causton]

Going back to the question does it make a difference if the ticket was purchased with an employer's cheque (as were most of my annuals over the years) or provided through the employer?

We ask for a letter from the original issuer of the cheque to ask who they would like the refund issued to - the customer or the company.

 

[TMD Tom]

If proof of requirement for needing a changeover has been requesting by the TOCs accounts team at head office, I assume the usual method of doing this at a station has failed. Either because they did not know how to do this or they did not want to. Either way, the talk of filming staff does not seem relevant now.

That you have been asked for proof of use by head office is very poor. They have no grounds to deny your request and any suggestion you must prove it will be used is plain stupid. Funny how the don’t request such proof when you buy the ticket in the first place, when they take the money off you; but do when/if they have to give you anything back.

If they decline I would be going to the ORR.

 

[FenMan]

To cut through the froth, it is none of the TOC's business to ask why a changeover is requested on an adult season ticket. But it is very much their business to ensure any refund due is issued to the correct party.

I can see why a student season ticket changeover could be more problematic.

 

[James12345AA]

If proof of requirement for needing a changeover has been requesting by the TOCs accounts team at head office, I assume the usual method of doing this at a station has failed. Either because they did not know how to do this or they did not want to. Either way, the talk of filming staff does not seem relevant now.

That you have been asked for proof of use by head office is very poor. They have no grounds to deny your request and any suggestion you must prove it will be used is plain stupid. Funny how the don’t request such proof when you buy the ticket in the first place, when they take the money off you; but do when/if they have to give you anything back.

If they decline I would be going to the ORR.

Thanks for your thoughts. I will probably just take them to court if they continue to ask for proof.

 

[James12345AA]

It's an adult season ticket that I bought and paid for myself. It has around 5 months left on it.

 

[najaB]

I will probably just take them to court if they continue to ask for proof.

I don't know if jumping straight to court is the right course of action. I may have missed it but I don't see that it's been to Transport Focus or the Ombudsman yet.

 

[Haywain]

The starting point should simply be to ask them why they are asking for this, as you understand that it isn't necessary to provide such evidence to support a season ticket purchase.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Thanks for your thoughts. I will probably just take them to court if they continue to ask for proof.

Courts do not approve of people doing that without having tried to resolve matters out of court first. Don't expect a sympathetic reaction if you were to do this.

What Haywain says above is sensible.

 

[[.n]]

To cut through the froth, it is none of the TOC's business to ask why a changeover is requested on an adult season ticket. But it is very much their business to ensure any refund due is issued to the correct party.

The correct party surely always being the person who the season ticket is issued to, thats who the contract is with. Its irrelevant if I have a season ticket loan from my employer, my agreement for that is separate and its up to me to ensure I do what is necessary in regard to that agreement.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I don't know if jumping straight to court is the right course of action. I may have missed it but I don't see that it's been to Transport Focus or the Ombudsman yet.

The as-yet inexistent Ombudsman or the woefully inept Transport Focus? Whilst I agree that taking issuing Court proceedings should be preceded by efforts at Alternative Dispute Resolution, these can usually be facilitated by methods such as negotiation and discussion, or the Small Claims Track's telephone negotiation service.

Waiting around for months for a reply before initiating proceedings merely because TOCs haven't allocated sufficient resources to deal with cases isn't a good enough reason IMO. They are no different to any other (corporate) debtor.

 

[najaB]

The as-yet inexistent Ombudsman or the woefully inept Transport Focus?

Opinions on their effectiveness are just that - opinions. The fact is that, as @Joe Paxton says, the Court takes a dim view of people who don't follow the established escalation process.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Opinions on their effectiveness are just that - opinions. The fact is that, as @Joe Paxton says, the Court takes a dim view of people who don't follow the established escalation process.

The established escalation procedure before making a Court claim is to follow the Civil Procedure Rules and the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct. Neither of these name Transport Focus or any Ombudsman. They merely specify that pre-court settlement of some sort should be attempted, but that it should be cost and time proportionate. Waiting months for a TOC to bother to respond is neither.

 

[Merseysider]

Even though Transport Focus are about as useful as a concrete parachute, it really ought to be escalated to them before being escalated any higher.

 

[OwlMan]

Do we know if this is an original ticket or a duplicate?

 

[James12345AA]

So I’ve had a response from the manager - who turned out to be ‘customer relations supervisor’. They say ‘We reserve the right to refuse your request should this evidence not be provided.’ And that if I am not satisfied with their request I can contact Transport Focus.

Any thoughts?

 

[James12345AA]

Do we know if this is an original ticket or a duplicate?

It’s a duplicate ticket but only because the original was damaged and so handed back to ticket office for a new

 

[bb21]

If you handed the original ticket back, that would be a replacement, not a duplicate.

A duplicate is for cases where the original is not handed in, eg. lost, so the potential for fraudulent use is higher.

 

[Puffing Devil]

So I’ve had a response from the manager - who turned out to be ‘customer relations supervisor’. They say ‘We reserve the right to refuse your request should this evidence not be provided.’ And that if I am not satisfied with their request I can contact Transport Focus.

Any thoughts?

It's in the conditions that a changeover is permitted for specific reasons. It's not unreasonable to ask for proof if the TOC will be out of pocket as a result of the change.

My assumption is that you cannot provide evidence as you don't meet the conditions, otherwise you may have done so under protest.

I wouldn't want to run it in court, though my experience is in criminal, not civil.