Season Ticket to Zone 6

[Jan Mayen]

I'd like to make sure I've understood the routing rules for an outboundary season ticket to Zone 6. In the thread about a ticket Maidenhead to Norbiton, it has been stated:

"That's the way it will be priced, but price is not a determinant of validity - and more fundamentally, if they only wanted it to be valid this way, the outboundary TC would have to be routed something more specific than Any Permitted, e.g. via Iver/Langley.

In the absence of such a route, it is perfectly permissible to make use of the validity to any chosen Zone 6 station"

Therefore the Maidenhead -Zone 56 is valid via Reading, despite a Reading -Zone 56 being more expensive.

However, that would suggest that if you wanted a season ticket Maidenhead to Northholt Park (for example), you would get a season to Zone 56 and travel via Oxford. Have I understood the rule correctly?
I'm sure I haven't.
Many thanks.

 

[JB_B]

..
However, that would suggest that if you wanted a season ticket Maidenhead to Northholt Park (for example), you would get a season to Zone 56 and travel via Oxford.

That wouldn't work because Maidenhead to West Ruislip [first station reached in Zone 6] isn't permitted via Oxford.

Whereas Maidenhead to Feltham [first station reached in Zone 6] is permitted via Reading - it's a mapped route on map combination RG+WX.

( for tickets route: Any Permitted)

 

[Jan Mayen]

Thank you for your reply.
The reason I'm surprised a travel card season from Maidenhead to Zones 56 is valid via Reading is that the equivalent weekly season from Reading is about £35 more expensive. I really must learn more about the Routing Guide!

 

[cactustwirly]

Thank you for your reply.
The reason I'm surprised a travel card season from Maidenhead to Zones 56 is valid via Reading is that the equivalent weekly season from Reading is about £35 more expensive. I really must learn more about the Routing Guide!

However it is not valid via Reading on the intercity services to Paddington

 

[SickyNicky]

That wouldn't work because Maidenhead to West Ruislip [first station reached in Zone 6] isn't permitted via Oxford.

Isn't it within three miles of the shortest route?

 

[Nunners]

That wouldn't work because Maidenhead to West Ruislip [first station reached in Zone 6] isn't permitted via Oxford.

Whereas Maidenhead to Feltham [first station reached in Zone 6] is permitted via Reading - it's a mapped route on map combination RG+WX.

( for tickets route: Any Permitted)

Is this the same for boundary zone tickets (e.g. to zone 6 boundary)?

 

[RJ]

You can select any station in Zone 6 and travel via the shortest route.

National Rail Enquires confirms this via the journey planner. If you know what rules are programmed in to determine the shortest route by rail then you can get more value out of your ticket.

Years of chasing odd workings around, reading TRUST schedules and knowing what sections of track are considered to have a regular passenger service helps to make this a lot easier. It's all relevant to what feeds the Journey Planner machine.

Can spell it all out in detail if there is interest. It's not just the railways who put absolute faith in their computer calculated outputs - if you can work out how systems work it can help you to get better value/prove to be lucrative.

 

[NeilWatson]

I’d be very interested to see your explanation ‘RJ’ please.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You can select any station in Zone 6 and travel via the shortest route.

Good stuff but don't see how Maidenhead to Feltham via Reading is the shortest route. Surely that's via Windsor?

 

[RJ]

Good stuff but don't see how Maidenhead to Feltham via Reading is the shortest route. Surely that's via Windsor?

I don't write the rules on how the shortest route is determined and by extension what routes are permitted by default as a result, I only abide by what what National Rail Enquires says!

There is no onus on the passenger to decide whether or not a route advertised as valid actually is or not - in fact we're told specifically in the Routeing Guide that a route is only valid if NRE allows it.

 

[SickyNicky]

Good stuff but don't see how Maidenhead to Feltham via Reading is the shortest route. Surely that's via Windsor?

Via Windsor requires a walk, so it can't be the shortest route by rail alone.

 

[JB_B]

Isn't it within three miles of the shortest route?

Oops! Yes, of course, that's right - I should have checked that. Via Oxford is the shortest route by rail so it is a permitted route for a Maidenhead - Northolt Park journey ( using a Maidenhead - Zones 56 season.)

NRE will sell one-day travelcards for journeys from Maidenhead to Northolt Park via Oxford.


Oddly, the national rail season ticket calculator offers Maidenhead to London Zones 56 seasons for Norbition but won't for Northholt Park. I'm not sure what logic is being applied there.

Is this the same for boundary zone tickets (e.g. to zone 6 boundary)?

My understanding is that routeing for BZ tickets works in the same way. ( Unless anyone knows otherwise? )

 

[SickyNicky]

There may be a spanner in the works with this, though, having reviewed section A of How to Use the National Routeing Guide:

A NOTE ABOUT ROUTEING WITH OUTBOUNDARY TRAVELCARDS
(TRAVELCARDS VALID FROM STATIONS OUTSIDE THE LONDON ZONAL FARE AREA TO ZONES(S)
WITHIN IT)
The route you take between your origin station and the point at which you first cross into the
London zonal area (Zones 1-9) should be the route valid for a journey to ‘London Terminals’,
regardless of the zone(s) to which the ticket is actually valid or the combination of London
Travelcards being used. This does not affect validity within the London zonal area, where you are
permitted to use any eligible National Rail service within the zone(s) for which your Travelcard is
valid.’

This appears to read that you need to caclulate Permitted Routes to London Terminals even when using outside zones only.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Via Windsor requires a walk, so it can't be the shortest route by rail alone.

Interesting. But there's still that specific "via Windsor" fare on Maidenhead - Feltham (and Maidenhead - Norbiton) flows, so a cross-Windsor walk must be contemplated by the fare setters for some journeys.

 

[yorkie]

@Jan Mayen once restrictions have eased, I suggest you join us at a fares workshop, where we can talk more freely about these things, without fear of getting rules changed and good value fares abolished or the routings changed.


One of the best examples was this https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mirfield-to-leeds-via-sowerby-bridge.115077/ ; the original poster found the anomaly had been fixed before he was able to buy the ticket! This is because certain people view this forum intently and are quite prepared to change the rules to prevent good value fares being valid. Fortunately @strowger was able to buy an annual Season ticket just before the change!

There may be a spanner in the works with this, though, having reviewed section A of How to Use the National Routeing Guide:


This appears to read that you need to caclulate Permitted Routes to London Terminals even when using outside zones only.

I think this was added later and is not really feasible, given London Terminals may never feature in the itinerary.

If I recall correctly, this was added on the quiet after a similar thread was posted on this forum.

 

[JB_B]

There may be a spanner in the works with this, though, having reviewed section A of How to Use the National Routeing Guide:



This appears to read that you need to caclulate Permitted Routes to London Terminals even when using outside zones only.

The introduction of that note (Nov 2019) prompted some discussion last year - see this and subsquent posts:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-routeing-guide-update.99396/post-4382027

It's not clear what status that note has. In any case NRE (still) doesn't attempt to apply any such restrictive rule.

 

[yorkie]

I don't expect that to last long now!

However that routeing is more due to the deletion of the cross-London LU mileage data, but that's a whole new topic in its own right!

 

[Watershed]

The introduction of that note (Nov 2019) prompted some discussion last year - see this and subsquent posts:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-routeing-guide-update.99396/post-4382027

It's not clear what status that note has. In any case NRE (still) doesn't attempt to apply any such restrictive rule.

It would appear that a K.W. Stapleton made an FoI request to the DfT asking for any correspondence they received regarding the addition of this note. The DfT said it did not have anything, and made the following statement:

It is our understanding that the wording change explains how a particular ticket type can be used and that this has not resulted in changes to any of the permitted routes listed within the National Routeing Guide

Since the Routeing Guide does not define how to determine permitted routes for Boundary Zone X tickets anywhere else, the above conclusion does have a degree of logic. Of course it is far from the right outcome but that is another matter!

The DfT advises invoking the Disputed Route Procedure if you believe the addition of the note has eliminated a previously permitted route.

That will often be difficult, since journey planners still validate routes on the old principles (and thus "there isn't a problem"). It also won't necessarily be clear whether a route previously defined as permitted would have been considered reasonable in BR days.

As always, you are still best off relying on an itinerary offered by NRE or your point of purchase. If you do this, there can be no real argument over the validity of your ticket on your chosen route.