Season Tickets and Splitting

[AlexS]

I have a season ticket between Telford and Codsall, but some Fridays I do Telford to Loughborough.

As a result I generally buy a Codsall to Loughborough return to use with my season ticket as I understand is permitted by the NR CoC.

However, this Friday just gone I boarded the 16:53 Telford to NEC and was accosted by a young conductor who informed me that I was fare evading because my train didn't stop at Codsall. I told him he was wrong, and he replied that he had received guidance it was now Arriva Trains Wales policy that the train must stop and that includes season tickets.

I told him he was contravening the conditions of carriage and eventually he walked off, having had the same argument with several others in the carriage. I made it clear enough that I wouldn't pay and he could try and do what he liked about it, without being particularly rude etc (I find being polite can be far more irritating!).

I have named and shamed the conductor to ATW so hopefully he will be pulled up on it. If not I will name and shame him to whichever agencies necessary until I'm informed that he's been pulled up and made to learn his rules properly if he's going to responsible for enforcing them.

The main gist of this post is just to make sure that my understanding of Condition 19 is correct and I've not just made myself look like an eedjit

 

[dan_atki]

Indeed, one (and only one) of the tickets must be a season (not issued on behalf of a PTE) for the train to not have to call for a valid combination.

And if it is indeed ATW's 'new policy' then they are contravening the NCoC - something they are not allowed to do...

 

[yorkie]

You are right. Well done for standing your ground If I was a guard, I wouldn't argue with you though

If this is ATW policy perhaps he can state which manager says this is ATW policy, as either he's incorrectly quoting the manager, or the manager is contravening the NCoC. Either way, someone needs a telling off.

If a guard makes a mistake and then looks it up, then that can be forgiven, of course as the rules are complicated. But to come up with such a statement.... that needs to be dealt with!

Let us know what response you get!

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

 

[furryfeet]

so do rovers and rangers count as "leisure travel passes" for the purpose of (c) above ?

 

[yorkie]

so do rovers and rangers count as "leisure travel passes" for the purpose of (c) above ?

Yes. This was added for clarification after GNER lost a court case against a customer. GNER had wrongly tried to claim that a Rover was not a Season. More people should fight the TOCs in court, as the law is on our side.

Written contracts
7. - (1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language.
(2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under regulation 12.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

 

[tony_mac]

it does define it in the CoC; e.g. Day Rangers do not count.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket
(excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes.

 

[SAC_Commuter]

This is interesting. Would I be correct in thinking the following then:

I have a season ticket between St Albans and London to get to work in London (only FCC trains stop at St Albans). If say I went to work in the morning but had the afternoon off and wanted to buy a saver/off-peak return to have a trip to Leicester/Derby/Nottingham, could I therefore buy the off-peak return for St Albans to Leicester/Derby/Nottingham but board an East Midlands train at London St Pancras to travel direct although the EMT train does not stop in St Albans?

NB. My season ticket is marked as 'Any permitted' not 'FCC only'

thanks

 

[clagmonster]

Quite correct, that conbination would be perfectly valid. If you are questioned, refer the guard/TTI to condition 19 of the condtitions of carriage.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes, provided the restrictions of the off-peak return are adhered to.

 

[AlexS]

Finally had a response off ATW yesterday.

I shall spare you the standard gumph that you get about 'extremely sorry' etc.

I should also say that as I didn't actually get over charged having somewhat mentally brow beaten the conductor in question, I stated I wasn't actually after any recompense, just to let them know of the potential problem (as it does state in the NRCoC that any company failing to adhere is in breach of their passenger licence anyway so they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if I decided to take it further, as one of their officials was insistent).

'With regards to the combination of tickets that you were intending to use I accept that the National Rail Conditions of Carriage state that this is possible. In view of your comments, I have passed a copy of your email to the responsible Conductor Manager so that appropriate follow up action can be taken.'

Blah blah blah,
Yours Sincerely
Arriva Trains Wales

 

[Ian99]

Hello

Could someone confirm/advise if an Oyster Card Zone 123 based London yearly travelcard counts as a season ticket for these rules?

In other words, can one buy a single to Clapham Junction from Woking and then travel on a non-stop train to Waterloo relying on the Oyster card to cover the part from Clapham to Waterloo?

Thanks in anticipation....

 

[Chris-P]

Hello

Could someone confirm/advise if an Oyster Card Zone 123 based London yearly travelcard counts as a season ticket for these rules?

In other words, can one buy a single to Clapham Junction from Woking and then travel on a non-stop train to Waterloo relying on the Oyster card to cover the part from Clapham to Waterloo?

Thanks in anticipation....

Yes, it does

 

[transportphoto]

Not to start arguments - I would say no. This is because that a oyster card needs to be touched in, with a season or not - this is because the oyster card usage would be messed up and there fore not able to record where you traveled from.

Also what would a RPI say as he may not be able to prove that you have said Season Travelcard on your oyster - I would stay on stopping services and change if a RPI says NO.

 

[Chris-P]

Not to start arguments - I would say no. This is because that a oyster card needs to be touched in, with a season or not - this is because the oyster card usage would be messed up and there fore not able to record where you traveled from.

Also what would a RPI say as he may not be able to prove that you have said Season Travelcard on your oyster - I would stay on stopping services and change if a RPI says NO.

Oyster seasons do NOT need to be touched in and out... the touching in/out just opens barriers (if you look at signs) it says just pay as you go. If you have a ticket from the edge of the zone onwards then it's valid, as it's a season ticket. RPIs MUST assume you have a season ticket, unless they can prove otherwise (with an oyster reader, which they'll have). NB, the train must pass through the station, but doesn't have to stop there!

section 9 of NRCoC applies:

In some cases a Train Company, a travel agent or other authorised person may issue you
with a ticket where the details of the trains you are entitled to use, together with any
rights to goods or services supplied by another person, are stored only in electronic form.
Such a ticket is referred to in these Conditions as an Electronic Ticket. Any reference in
these Conditions to the term “ticket” includes an Electronic Ticket unless specifically
stated otherwise.

Edit: they need to touch in/out if they're using oyster payg + season ticket with an oyster extension permit, but that's different!

 

[yorkie]

Not to start arguments - I would say no. This is because that a oyster card needs to be touched in, with a season or not - this is because the oyster card usage would be messed up and there fore not able to record where you traveled from.

Also what would a RPI say as he may not be able to prove that you have said Season Travelcard on your oyster - I would stay on stopping services and change if a RPI says NO.

What the...?!?!

You need to stand up for yourself more!

The Oyster card is irrelevant. It's a medium. So what? What matters is not the medium itself, but the product held on it. So if you have a Travelcard Season, you have a Travelcard Season. End of. No ifs, no buts.

If an inspector can't read it, who cares? That's his/her problem.

If an RPI says "no", then it goes like this:

Can I have your name please?
Who is your line manager please?
What is the headcode of this train please?
To whom should I address a complaint please?

Simple.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could someone confirm/advise if an Oyster Card Zone 123 based London yearly travelcard counts as a season ticket for these rules?

A Travelcard Season counts as if it were a normal season, yes.

However some PTE issued products do not count, but the Travelcard certainly does.

 

[A60K]

Not to start arguments - I would say no. This is because that a oyster card needs to be touched in, with a season or not - this is because the oyster card usage would be messed up and there fore not able to record where you traveled from.

Also what would a RPI say as he may not be able to prove that you have said Season Travelcard on your oyster - I would stay on stopping services and change if a RPI says NO.

You're not starting an argument - you're just talking nonsense! With respect, if you don't know the answer then don't just give a personal opinion which may end up costing someone a lot of money.

A season ticket/Travelcard can be issued on paper or on an electronic medium such as Oyster and it makes no difference.

 

[yorkie]

You're not starting an argument - you're just talking nonsense! With respect, if you don't know the answer then don't just give a personal opinion which may end up costing someone a lot of money.

Agreed. There's enough confusion over PAYG vs Travelcards as it is.

Common Oyster myths:

You don't need to touch in/out when PAYG is capped as it's effectively a travelcard
Not true, although it should be true, and the fact it isn't is quite disgraceful, so be vigilant.

You do need to touch in/out when using a Travelcard season on Oyster
Not true, why would you need to?

If a guard does not have an Oyster reader he can assume you are invalid
Not true, how can anyone believe that?

TOCs can refuse to accept Oyster if they wish
Not true, Oyster is a medium. See the terms of the product to determine validity. If it's a Travelcard season it is still a Travelcard season! If it's PAYG then that's different. Some incompetent people at Virgin Trains failed to grasp this and failed miserably (info here).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....If a guard does not have an Oyster reader he can assume you are invalid
Not true, how can anyone believe that?....

Whilst I don't believe it should be true, I think this comes from the NCoC, Condition 22 being the culprit....

22. Inspection of tickets

You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand
over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of
personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do not, you will be treated
as having joined a train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will
apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable
to hand over for inspection a valid ticket.

I believe it is actually meant to cover things like mobile phone batteries going flat and such like, rather than guards/RPIs being unable to read oysters, but it doesn't specifically say that and I can't see anything to that effect in the Oyster section of the FRPP. My knowledge of Oyster is a little rusty though, having not encountered them for a few years. I dare say, if confronted about it, the TOC would back down anyway.

Do Oyster seasons still get paper copies these days?

For completeness, Condition 9 defines an 'Electronic Ticket' as follows:

9. Electronic Tickets

In some cases a Train Company, a travel agent or other authorised person may issue you
with a ticket where the details of the trains you are entitled to use, together with any
rights to goods or services supplied by another person, are stored only in electronic form.
Such a ticket is referred to in these Conditions as an Electronic Ticket. Any reference in
these Conditions to the term “ticket” includes an Electronic Ticket unless specifically
stated otherwise.

An Electronic Ticket may be stored on a:
(i) Smartcard (including an Oyster or ITSO card);
(ii) payment card or identity card;
(iii) mobile telephone;
(iv) personal organiser; or
(v) other mobile electronic device.

If a Smartcard is issued by a Train Company, it remains the property of that Train Company
and you may be charged a deposit. If a Smartcard is no longer required and is returned to
the office of issue in good condition any deposit paid will be refunded. A Smartcard that
does not contain an Electronic Ticket is not a valid authority to travel.
Some Smartcards may be used to buy stored credit which you can use later to buy
Electronic Tickets. In these Conditions, credit stored in this way is termed Electronic
Funds. It is your responsibility to make sure that you have enough Electronic Funds on
your Smartcard to pay for the Electronic Ticket required for the journey you intend to
make.

Wherever reference is made in these Conditions to information about restrictions,
stations, routes and period of validity being shown on tickets, this information will not be
shown on Smartcards and may not be displayed on the cards or devices in (ii) to (v) of this
Condition, for any Electronic Tickets they contain. However, any restrictions or other terms
of use (including these Conditions where applicable) will still apply. You can get details of
restrictions and terms of use from the seller of the Electronic Ticket or Electronic Funds.

 

[Mojo]

I disagree with the above, because the electronic ticket (and I have noted that the electronic ticket is not the physical smartcard itself but what it stored on it, and can only be read by a computer) can be displayed, it is just that the member of staff is unable to read it.

 

[yorkie]

Agreed. It's on display. If they can't read it, so what? that's their problem.

If they need glasses to read a paper ticket, and fail to bring them, that's their problem too.

 

[Helvellyn]

I'll just point out if you have an Annual Season Oyster (Zones 123) and are travelling from Woking then buy a ticket to Wimbledon, Clapham being in Zone 2.

Thought I'd point that out in case it might be our problem if you bought the wrong ticket. :roll:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

All I was trying to point out was that as far as I can see (what with me not being Oyster trained currently and relying on the FRPP and NCoC for information) the NCoC seems to suggest that it is your problem if the guard doesn't have the reader, even if that is never actually the case. I didn't say that this would happen or that a TOC would back up it's guard should it happen, just that the NCoC suggests it is the case, hence the 'myth'

I disagree with the above, because the electronic ticket (and I have noted that the electronic ticket is not the physical smartcard itself but what it stored on it, and can only be read by a computer) can be displayed, it is just that the member of staff is unable to read it.

How can the 'electronic ticket' be displayed?

You are displaying to the guard, the medium on which the ticket is held, not the ticket itself, the ticket can only be displayed by the machine the guards are supposed to carry with them. If the guard doesn't have a working reader, the ticket cannot be displayed because there is nothing to display it.

If I had a mobile with an electronic ticket on it, but the battery dies before the guard checks the ticket (or the screen is broken, or something similar), if I show the guard the phone, is that proof I have a ticket? No, because the ticket cannot be displayed.

Agreed. It's on display. If they can't read it, so what? that's their problem....

I agree that it should be the guards problem, but the ticket is not on display, the medium is, so who's problem is it really?

....If they need glasses to read a paper ticket, and fail to bring them, that's their problem too.

How is that the same thing? The paper ticket has the details of the ticket displayed on its face for all to see, an Oyster doesn't.

 

[button_boxer]

You are displaying to the guard, the medium on which the ticket is held, not the ticket itself, the ticket can only be displayed by the machine the guards are supposed to carry with them. If the guard doesn't have a working reader, the ticket cannot be displayed because there is nothing to display it.

If I had a mobile with an electronic ticket on it, but the battery dies before the guard checks the ticket (or the screen is broken, or something similar), if I show the guard the phone, is that proof I have a ticket? No, because the ticket cannot be displayed.

I agree that it should be the guards problem, but the ticket is not on display, the medium is, so who's problem is it really?

Displaying an electronic ticket requires co-operation between the medium storing the ticket and a reader capable of displaying it. With a ticket on a mobile phone both the medium (the phone's memory) and the reader (the phone's screen, plus adequately charged battery, etc) are under your control as the passenger, and it's your responsibility to have them both available and in working order. With Oyster you only carry the medium (the card), but the reader is the responsibility of the guard and surely he can't blame you if he doesn't have one available.