Seat Reservations & Empty Seats

[Bill Carson]

I just joined this forum today so apologies if this has been discussed previously.

I'm a regular FGW traveller between Paddington & South Wales and I suspect that they (FGW) are playing a numbers game with their ticket pricing and availabilty.
When I recently travelled on the 1225 from Cardiff to Paddington on a Monday, I estimated two-thirds (if not more) of the seats on the train were reserved. These reservations were from Swansea all the way to Reading but my carriage was virtually empty and so were all of the others. There is no way that so many of the paying public would forsake their expensive journeys. Also, there was zero availablity for the cheapest fares when I booked 7-10 days previously and so I can smell a rat here. I don't believe for a second that all of those 'ticketed' seats were genuinly booked up. Instead of increasing the availabilty of cheap tickets, it seems that FGW are happier to have a train virtually empty, with a handful of punters paying £50 plus on tickets, rather than packing out a train with £20-£25 super advanced tickets.
If this is what they are doing then surely it's illegal?

This is a common occurence on the journey - has anyone else noticed or suspected something similar on their journeys?

 

[Romilly]

I can't comment on FGW in particular, but two general points:

(1) some/most/all of the reservations may have been for flexible tickets, i.e. the passenger thought it most likely that they would catch the particular train and therefore made a reservation, but their ticket would still be valid for other trains if they chose to travel earlier or later (so unused reservations are not necessarily forsaken expensive tickets), and

(2) where early-booked Advances are extremely good value, a passenger who doesn't know their exact time of travel may buy two or more Advances for different times on the same day knowing they will use only one of them, as that can be cheaper than: (a) booking a single Advance and then paying later to move it to a different time (which may be impossible if the actual time of travel is not known before the day of travel); and (b) buying a flexible ticket.

 

[gordonthemoron]

also advanced pax with reservations may choose to sit in an unreserved coach closer to the London end (which is what I always do)

 

[Bill Carson]

Yes, I accept that some passengers will purchase 'anytime' tickets but I don't accept that these account for the hundreds of empty seats on late morning and lunchtime services. Also, the majority of regular folk wouldn't pay extra for 'anytime' tickets as the costs are already eye-watering (business people yes but they don't account for the majority of my fellow passengers from what I've seen).

 

[davetheguard]

There will also be a small number who have unfortunately missed the train for whatever reason: late running previous train - missed connection; late getting to the station - road traffic delays etc.

Lots of people will sit in a different seat to the one they hold a reservation for, and for all sorts of reasons.

I really do think you're trying to see a conspiracy where none exists; all those reservations are genuine bookings.

 

[LexyBoy]

It wouldn't make any sense for FGW to do so anyway: if they want to limit the availability of the cheap fares, they can do so without using "phantom bookings". FGW are free not to offer any Advance fares at all if they so wish.

 

[Quakkerillo]

What I believe is a fair point by the OP: The reservations come from Swansea to Reading.

Unused reservations aren't weird at all. I've had 3/4 reservations this summer holiday in the UK unused myself (Missed connection; delay so short connection at Glasgow, moving a few carriages closer to the concourse; leaving on an earlier train).

But the reservation routing is a bit peculiar: Most traffic wouldn't come all the way from Swansea, I'd reckon, and also not go to Reading as final destination. (More from Cardiff, more to London). So if this is repetitive, I'd also be getting curious.

 

[Clip]

But the reservation routing is a bit peculiar: Most traffic wouldn't come all the way from Swansea, I'd reckon, and also not go to Reading as final destination. (More from Cardiff, more to London). So if this is repetitive, I'd also be getting curious.

Of course if the OP was travelling on the Monday just gone then it makes perfect sense seeing as the cricket was finished early in Cardiff and maybe people who had flexible tickets had managed to bag reservations for the Swansea and after part on the later train to avoid commuters and also + connections for a change at Reading to other parts of the network.

Sometimes the bigger picture needs to be looked at for missing reservations.

 

[Bill Carson]

Erm, I walk through all of the carriages and this is what I see - its hardly down to a few people missing their connections! A load of these empty seats are from where the services start as well. Why, even on a 1925 service on a saturday evening to Paddington the same thing is evident? They are putting reserved tickets in unsold seats because ..........? One things for sure, there'll be a financial gain behing them doing it somehow. This has been going on for years and one day the truth will come out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It was a normal quiet monday back in June

 

[Clip]

Erm, I walk through all of the carriages and this is what I see - its hardly down to a few people missing their connections! A load of these empty seats are from where the services start as well. Why, even on a 1925 service on a saturday evening to Paddington the same thing is evident? They are putting reserved tickets in unsold seats because ..........? One things for sure, there'll be a financial gain behing them doing it somehow. This has been going on for years and one day the truth will come out.

People with flexible tickets can book reservations free of charge in most if not all cases. You can do this over a few services too if you so wish too. They don't turn up because they get an earlier/later train so what do you expect TOCs to do about it?

Granted after the station the guard could take them out but I would love to know why you think its a big conspiracy by FGW when if they wanted to they could just not offer any advances at all.

 

[Bill Carson]

If you think this is normal behavior then good for you. It must cost them a fair bit of money over the week / month / year printing these reservation tickets as well. To me, the money grabbers are up to something and it isn't for the passengers benefit that's for sure. I posted this on here today to see if anyone had suspicions or valid reasons for this behavior that's all and no one has provided either, so I'm out of here. I certainly don't want to engage in a spat with anyone over this. Have a nice day folks.

 

[Tetchytyke]

FGW don't need to issue phantom bookings to reduce the availability of cheaper advance tickets, they can just press a button and reduce the quota available. It's a commercial secret how many seats are in each quota, they don't have to lie, they can just cut the quotas.

They're not going to go to the expense of printing out hundreds of phantom reservations when they can achieve the same effect for free by not printing out hundreds of phantom reservations.

 

[IanD]

Maybe they're hoping to push people in to upgrading to First Class.

 

[LexyBoy]

No-one's starting a spat - I think we are just struggling to see why FGW would want to create a lot of fake reservations.

I travel on FGW services almost daily (usually Bristol or Cheltenham services though, less frequently Welsh ones) and have not seen what you describe. Plenty of empty reserved seats, yes, but not carriages full of seats all with the same journey reserved. It sounds to me like a large group booking which for whatever reason didn't take that train.

 

[6Gman]

But you can never persuade a conspiracy theorist.

Because any explanation is part of the conspiracy!

 

[AlterEgo]

FGW don't need to issue phantom bookings to reduce the availability of cheaper advance tickets, they can just press a button and reduce the quota available. It's a commercial secret how many seats are in each quota, they don't have to lie, they can just cut the quotas.

They're not going to go to the expense of printing out hundreds of phantom reservations when they can achieve the same effect for free by not printing out hundreds of phantom reservations.

This...!

 

[Greenback]

There are many reasons why reservations don't get used. Here are some off the tope of my head, but in no particular order.

Flexible ticket holders catch a different train.
Advance ticket holders don't travel for some reason.
Missed connections, in this case maybe from Tenby or other places in West Wales where the reservations are from Swansea.
The passenger sits elsewhere.
The passenger buys two Advance tickets to hedge their bets, where it's cheaper to do so than to buy a more flexible ticket. One ticket doesn't get used.

There just isn't any reason for FGW to put out phantom reservations. It doesn't achieve anything, just wastes time and money in printing them out.

 

[Deerfold]

If you think this is normal behavior then good for you. It must cost them a fair bit of money over the week / month / year printing these reservation tickets as well. To me, the money grabbers are up to something and it isn't for the passengers benefit that's for sure. I posted this on here today to see if anyone had suspicions or valid reasons for this behavior that's all and no one has provided either, so I'm out of here. I certainly don't want to engage in a spat with anyone over this. Have a nice day folks.

Once you're a few minutes past the station the reservations are for and the passenger hasn't turned up, there's nothing to stop you sitting in that seat without a reservation - and so no advantage to anyone marking it as reserved if it isn't.

I regularly sit in reserved seats between Kings Cross and Leeds (once we're about to leave and with the risk I may have to give up the seat if the passenger has just managed to catch the train).

 

[yorksrob]

Once you're a few minutes past the station the reservations are for and the passenger hasn't turned up, there's nothing to stop you sitting in that seat without a reservation - and so no advantage to anyone marking it as reserved if it isn't.

I regularly sit in reserved seats between Kings Cross and Leeds (once we're about to leave and with the risk I may have to give up the seat if the passenger has just managed to catch the train).

Yes, it's annoying when they suddenly turn up five minutes into the journey.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, it's annoying when they suddenly turn up five minutes into the journey.

They probably feel the same about you sitting in the seat they have reserved. However, you know the risk so it should be accepted with good grace as it will only be a problem on the busiest trains.

 

[yorksrob]

[/I]

They probably feel the same about you sitting in the seat they have reserved. However, you know the risk so it should be accepted with good grace as it will only be a problem on the busiest trains.

I do. It's still annoying though.

As I've mentioned previously, the best thing they could do would be to get rid of automatic seat reservations with advanced purchase tickets. I'm sure the majority of AP travellers wouldn't bother if they had to request a reservation.

On the subject of conspiracy, the real one is where you book early and find no cheap reservations available. Busy train, so you think, but then when you walk down the train, you find lots of very sparsely populated carriages !

 

[westv]

[/I]


As I've mentioned previously, the best thing they could do would be to get rid of automatic seat reservations with advanced purchase tickets. I'm sure the majority of AP travellers wouldn't bother if they had to request a reservation.

!

I never understand this attitude when I read it. Why shouldn't AP tickets get an automatic seat reservation? We already have to book a certain train on a certain day sometimes months in advance.

 

[snail]

Instead of increasing the availabilty of cheap tickets, it seems that FGW are happier to have a train virtually empty, with a handful of punters paying £50 plus on tickets, rather than packing out a train with £20-£25 super advanced tickets.
If this is what they are doing then surely it's illegal?

There are no laws to prevent train companies charging what they like for tickets, except for regulated fares. But you are not talking about those.

There are many books and papers written about revenue management. It all started with American Airlines many years ago and has spread to many forms of transport including trains. If FGW or any other operator is looking to maximise revenue on a service it won't sell all its seats. One walk up fare is worth many Advance fares, especially on peak services. Even in your example one passenger paying £50 is worth more than twice the Advance passenger paying £20. So they can leave two £20 seats empty knowing that they will get more money if one full fare is sold. Spread that across all the peak services for a day or a week and you may begin to see why there are empty seats.

 

[yorksrob]

I never understand this attitude when I read it. Why shouldn't AP tickets get an automatic seat reservation? We already have to book a certain train on a certain day sometimes months in advance.

Why do you need an automatic seat reservation ?

Surely if you want one you can ask for one ?

Why bother giving one to everybody who doesn't want one (and blocking out a load of seats that don't need to be blocked out).

 

[Bijgc]

I often travel London to Bristol on an advance purchase ticket and don't think I have ever sat in my reserved seat! I view the reservation as useful to have on the off-chance the train is busy, and if I know it will be quiet (say, the 1500 ex PAD) will often catch a different train to the one my reservation is on. My bugbear are those who get on a quiet train and insist on taking up their reserved seat, even if it means disrupting a passenger already sitting there/near...:roll:

 

[yorksrob]

My bugbear are those who get on a quiet train and insist on taking up their reserved seat, even if it means disrupting a passenger already sitting there/near...:roll:

To be fair, they probably think there will be some sort of a fine or argument if they sit in the wrong seat. A situation exacerbated by giving out reservations where they're not wanted or needed.

 

[westv]

Why do you need an automatic seat reservation ?

Surely if you want one you can ask for one ?

Why bother giving one to everybody who doesn't want one (and blocking out a load of seats that don't need to be blocked out).

You seem to be assuming that the majority of unused seat reservations are AP tickets.

 

[yorksrob]

You seem to be assuming that the majority of unused seat reservations are AP tickets.

Even if they're not, why exacerbate the problem by giving reservations to people who neither want, nor need one ?

 

[westv]

You seem to be assuming that the majority of unused seat reservations are AP tickets.

Even if they're not, why exacerbate the problem by giving reservations to people who neither want, nor need one ?

I'd suggest most unused reservations are from people who buy tickets with optional reservations.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd suggest most unused reservations are from people who buy tickets with optional reservations.

If that's a real issue (and I don't know whether it is or not) there's always the option of charging a small fee for them. However, there's still no point in giving reservations to people who don't need them.