Seat Reservations & Empty Seats

[DeeGee]

The practicalities might need some work, but I am generally in favour of an approach like this. We should make sure those people paying very high prices get priority for seats, ahead of those on cheap tickets. Let's not go down the budget airline route of penalising the most profitable customers!

But you aren't paying the premium for the seat, you're paying the premium for the versatility of the ticket. Thinking of Standard Class, you've got:

Anytime, Any Permitted - any train, on any route, at any time between the two stations mentioned on the ticket, with no restrictions on break of journey;
Anytime, Route/Operator specified/restricted - any train along or avoiding a specified route or operator, at any time of day, with no restrictions on break of journey;
Off Peak, Any Permitted. Restricted time, but any train during those times, with restrictions on break of journey;
Off Peak, Route/Operator specified/restricted;
Super Off-Peak, even more restricted validity;

(And of course, these can be bought on the day of departure, can be amended for only a handling fee, or cancelled if booked in advance and mostly refunded. And all of them can come with a reservation if required)

And bottom of the heap is the Advance, which is entirely restricted in terms of route, time, train and seat, and if you're going to get one of these "cheap" advances you even have to commit to the exact journey that you wish to take 12 weeks in advance. With no possibility refunding if your plans change.

And it's the total absence of flexibility that requires the purchaser of the Advance fare to have a reservation, because if they can't get on that train, they can't make the journey that they've paid for.

 

[anme]

But you aren't paying the premium for the seat, you're paying the premium for the versatility of the ticket.

...or more likely paying a premium for buying the ticket just before travelling (or in some cases, long before travel but after advances have sold out). In my case, almost every time, or in fact probably every time, I have bought a flexible ticket for a long journey, I have done so because I'm buying it on the day of travel, or because advances have all sold out. The flexibility is only a theoretical advantage, that I'm not really interested in using.

We end up in a situation where someone with an advance gets to sit, and someone who has paid perhaps several times as much for a "flexible" ticket has to stand. For someone who buys a ticket just before travel and has no chance to reserve a seat, that doesn't seem very fair, and it's certainly not good business sense for the rail industry.

 

[AM9]

...or more likely paying a premium for buying the ticket just before travelling (or in some cases, long before travel but after advances have sold out). In my case, almost every time, or in fact probably every time, I have bought a flexible ticket for a long journey, I have done so because I'm buying it on the day of travel, or because advances have all sold out. The flexibility is only a theoretical advantage, that I'm not really interested in using.

We end up in a situation where someone with an advance gets to sit, and someone who has paid perhaps several times as much for a "flexible" ticket has to stand. For someone who buys a ticket just before travel and has no chance to reserve a seat, that doesn't seem very fair, and it's certainly not good business sense for the rail industry.

Well the XC reservation system would seem the way out of that, possibly with a 'reserve at station' when you buy the ticket facility. The only passengers who would lose out then were those who bought their tickets less than 10 minutes from the advertised departure. In reality, those booking early and getting the lower-cost deals are helping as part of the demand management system, Anybody can do it if they are prepared to take the risk, but many choose not to.

 

[fandroid]

And bottom of the heap is the Advance, which is entirely restricted in terms of route, time, train and seat, and if you're going to get one of these "cheap" advances you even have to commit to the exact journey that you wish to take 12 weeks in advance. With no possibility refunding if your plans change.

This is not strictly true. As far as I am aware, you can change the reservation part of an Advance ticket at any time before the original departure time. The standard £10 fee applies. It does depend, of course on availability of Advance tickets on the service you now want to use, and there is likely to be a surcharge too, if you got a cheaper one than is now available.

 

[yorksrob]

Well the XC reservation system would seem the way out of that, possibly with a 'reserve at station' when you buy the ticket facility. The only passengers who would lose out then were those who bought their tickets less than 10 minutes from the advertised departure. In reality, those booking early and getting the lower-cost deals are helping as part of the demand management system, Anybody can do it if they are prepared to take the risk, but many choose not to.

Or even more easily alleviated by not just doling out a seat reservation to everyone who buys an AP ticket.

 

[AM9]

Or even more easily alleviated by not just doling out a seat reservation to everyone who buys an AP ticket.

That would put the TOC in a difficult position if the trains was too full to board as the AP passenger would have a ticket that was only valid on that train. How would you manage that situation?

 

[yorksrob]

That would put the TOC in a difficult position if the trains was too full to board as the AP passenger would have a ticket that was only valid on that train. How would you manage that situation?

However South West trains manage it on their Exeter and Weymouth services.

 

[AM9]

We end up in a situation where someone with an advance gets to sit, and someone who has paid perhaps several times as much for a "flexible" ticket has to stand. For someone who buys a ticket just before travel and has no chance to reserve a seat, that doesn't seem very fair, and it's certainly not good business sense for the rail industry.

Given that in the real world, seating capacity on trains is finite, the alternatives are:
1) Make a lot more seats available for advance bookings. Then you have the problem thatsomebody who genuinely only decides to travel on the day has even less chance of one.
2) Stop all reservations (or charge for them) meaning that passengers who do the right thing and plan their travel in advance then find that they can't get a seat, which could be particularly difficult for a family on holiday with their luggage.
There is another option that works perfectly well which is only sell tickets for which seats are available, when they have gone, you look to book on the next service. Works well for the airlines and Eurostar, but I suspect there will be howls of complaints form the 'turn up and go' mob if it were to be adopted on domestic train services. Let's see what HS2 does.
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However South West trains manage it on their Exeter and Weymouth services.

I don't know what SWT does so could you tell me what would happen in the situation that I described?

 

[yorksrob]

I don't know what SWT does so could you tell me what would happen in the situation that I deswcribed?

I'm not an expert on South West Trains practice, however, I would expect that in the unlikely event that somebody with an AP ticket physically couldn't get on their booked train, their ticket would be endorsed for them to catch the next one.

 

[kevinwaltets]

Well I like SWT from Poole to Waterloo with a bit of careful planning (real train times platform info) I can always get a seat in the front carriage on peak service from London. I can sit where I want and I am not forced into an unsuitable seat as I have long legs and space is a big issue for me. I struggle with reservations as I end up in a seat I cannot use or suffer in pain

Daft thing is 30 years ago seat spacing was never an issue.

 

[AM9]

I'm not an expert on South West Trains practice, however, I would expect that in the unlikely event that somebody with an AP ticket physically couldn't get on their booked train, their ticket would be endorsed for them to catch the next one.

So somebody who has planned and paid for their journey in advance will be penalised, possibly on a long journey so that somebody who has just turned up can ride. I don't think that is a way to promote the railway as a means for leisure travel, particularly families and the elderly.
Turn-up and go is more of an inconvenience for commercial TOCs so I think that their business models will continue to promote book-ahead travel where appropriate. Those that have only just decided to travel can just as easily change them to something with spare capacity on the day. It's the same the commercial world over, if a shop has the first 10p0 off of an item at a reduced sale price, do you think that they should be obliged to sell at the reduced price for all those who fail to get there early enough?

 

[yorksrob]

So somebody who has planned and paid for their journey in advance will be penalised, possibly on a long journey so that somebody who has just turned up can ride. I don't think that is a way to promote the railway as a means for leisure travel, particularly families and the elderly.
Turn-up and go is more of an inconvenience for commercial TOCs so I think that their business models will continue to promote book-ahead travel where appropriate. Those that have only just decided to travel can just as easily change them to something with spare capacity on the day. It's the same the commercial world over, if a shop has the first 10p0 off of an item at a reduced sale price, do you think that they should be obliged to sell at the reduced price for all those who fail to get there early enough?

Firstly, at the risk of repeating myself (yet again) I'm not saying that people on AP shouldn't have the right to ask for a reservation, just that they shouldn't be given out willy nilly to AP passengers, and it certainly shouldn't be in the CoC's that an advanced passenger has to sit in a reserved seat.

Secondly, if the train is so physically full that people can't actually get on, they won't be able to get on regardless of whether they have a seat reservation or not, neither is the guard going to be squeezing up the train turfing people out of reserved seats on the off chance that the booked passenger manages to make it through, so the distinction you are trying to make is meaningless.

 

[AM9]

Firstly, at the risk of repeating myself (yet again) I'm not saying that people on AP shouldn't have the right to ask for a reservation, just that they shouldn't be given out willy nilly to AP passengers,

What does that mean, that they can have them if they want or that they won't be offered unless they ask?

.... and it certainly shouldn't be in the CoC's that an advanced passenger has to sit in a reserved seat.

Well they have to sit somewhere and a reserved seat is at least there for them.

Secondly, if the train is so physically full that people can't actually get on, they won't be able to get on regardless of whether they have a seat reservation or not, neither is the guard going to be squeezing up the train turfing people out of reserved seats on the off chance that the booked passenger manages to make it through, so the distinction you are trying to make is meaningless.

Well the only solution to that is to limit the number boarding giving passengers with seat reservations priority. When they have their seats, any others can be fought over by the casual passengers.
Just fro clarity, I'm not considering commuter trains or metro services. The issue with reservations really applies to longer distance services on routes where passengers are making planned journies, typically journeys over 100 miles where standing is not really viable with somebody carrying luggage.
The fact that those who choose flexible tickets might end up standing because they didn't or booked too late to reserve a seat, is irrelevant. They knew (or could easily find out if they bothered to look) that a ticket only guarantees travel, not a seat. Not normally a problem but they are the contract conditions under which any ticket without a reservation is purchased.
If their view of entitlement is to prevail then the only solution is to stop selling tickets when all seats are booked. If XC can offer 10 minute reservations, then the same system can stop selling tickets at that point. I don't have a problem standing with my flexible ticket, even if there are passengers occupying seats that have paid the lowest tier of advance fares, not that I would know of course. This is a refreshingly non-capitalist situation, money paid doesn't get you a seat!

 

[yorksrob]

What does that mean, that they can have them if they want or that they won't be offered unless they ask?


Well they have to sit somewhere and a reserved seat is at least there for them.


Well the only solution to that is to limit the number boarding giving passengers with seat reservations priority. When they have their seats, any others can be fought over by the casual passengers.
Just fro clarity, I'm not considering commuter trains or metro services. The issue with reservations really applies to longer distance services on routes where passengers are making planned journies, typically journeys over 100 miles where standing is not really viable with somebody carrying luggage.
The fact that those who choose flexible tickets might end up standing because they didn't or booked too late to reserve a seat, is irrelevant. They knew (or could easily find out if they bothered to look) that a ticket only guarantees travel, not a seat. Not normally a problem but they are the contract conditions under which any ticket without a reservation is purchased.
If their view of entitlement is to prevail then the only solution is to stop selling tickets when all seats are booked. If XC can offer 10 minute reservations, then the same system can stop selling tickets at that point. I don't have a problem standing with my flexible ticket, even if there are passengers occupying seats that have paid the lowest tier of advance fares, not that I would know of course. This is a refreshingly non-capitalist situation, money paid doesn't get you a seat!

I mean that if a passenger with an off-peak or anytime ticket requests a reservation, they can get one. There really is no reason why this has to be any different for AP passengers, even though I don't think many TOC's do this (I'm not sure if SWT offer reservations on their own AP's as I've never asked for one).

I don't have any objection in principle to AP passengers being prioritised at the barrier (or anyone with a reservation) however, I don't see how this would be practical.

 

[Hadders]

I mean that if a passenger with an off-peak or anytime ticket requests a reservation, they can get one. There really is no reason why this has to be any different for AP passengers, even though I don't think many TOC's do this (I'm not sure if SWT offer reservations on their own AP's as I've never asked for one).

I don't have any objection in principle to AP passengers being prioritised at the barrier (or anyone with a reservation) however, I don't see how this would be practical.

Why would anyone buying an Advance ticket not want a seat reservation, given that you're tied to a specific train.

I've often purchased 'walk on' tickets without a reservation as I've not been sure exactly which train I'd be travelling on but with an Advance I'd always request a reservation and so would everyone else.

 

[yorksrob]

Why would anyone buying an Advance ticket not want a seat reservation, given that you're tied to a specific train.

I've often purchased 'walk on' tickets without a reservation as I've not been sure exactly which train I'd be travelling on but with an Advance I'd always request a reservation and so would everyone else.

Quite simply because I wouldn't want to be stuck in a seat next to a pillar or facing the wrong way etc. Unless the train was going to be particularly busy, why on earth would you want to tie yourself down to a particular seat?

 

[AM9]

I mean that if a passenger with an off-peak or anytime ticket requests a reservation, they can get one. There really is no reason why this has to be any different for AP passengers, even though I don't think many TOC's do this (I'm not sure if SWT offer reservations on their own AP's as I've never asked for one).

I don't have any objection in principle to AP passengers being prioritised at the barrier (or anyone with a reservation) however, I don't see how this would be practical.

Well in my recent experience, I've been able to get reservations on VTWC & FGW for Off-peak returns. There is no discrimination based on price, just on when you book.

The system works most of the time anyway so why does it need changing? The only practical change for long-distance trains, (where it is more normal for passengers to have luggage, maybe children and possible onward travel connections) would be for all-seating trains. That would be no worse than aircraft , express coaches or Eurostar, so expect it with HS2, (which will also become the turn-up and go service from London to the cities that it serves).
There is no discrimination based on price, just on when you book.

 

[yorksrob]

Well in my recent experience, I've been able to get reservations on VTWC & FGW for Off-peak returns. There is no discrimination based on price, just on when you book.

The system works most of the time anyway so why does it need changing? The only practical change for long-distance trains, (where it is more normal for passengers to have luggage, maybe children and possible onward travel connections) would be for all-seating trains. That would be no worse than aircraft , express coaches or Eurostar, so expect it with HS2, (which will also become the turn-up and go service from London to the cities that it serves).
There is no discrimination based on price, just on when you book.

Because if you changed it, you might not end up with quite such a large sea of unoccupied reserved seats which non regular passengers find off-putting because they aren't confident enough to check the origin and sit there.

 

[AM9]

Because if you changed it, you might not end up with quite such a large sea of unoccupied reserved seats which non regular passengers find off-putting because they aren't confident enough to check the origin and sit there.

Well most of them evetually learn. It should also be encumbent on the guard to inform them when he passes through the train. Once they have seen how it is done, they would check the next time. The last time I travelled on a train with reserved seats, (two days ago), I observed that once the more deisreable unreserved seats were taken, freshly boarding passengers started reading the tickets, (indicators on Pendolinos) and taking the seats. Changing the whole system because a few 'new' passengers don't look at the cards is a bit of an overkill. A publicity campaign to tell passengers to look at the cards would be more productive as it would give better utilisation of seating and more satisfied-customers.

 

[transmanche]

Quite simply because I wouldn't want to be stuck in a seat next to a pillar or facing the wrong way etc. Unless the train was going to be particularly busy, why on earth would you want to tie yourself down to a particular seat?

Personally I use VTEC's seat selector, so I pick the seat I want before I travel.

 

[yorksrob]

Well most of them evetually learn. It should also be encumbent on the guard to inform them when he passes through the train. Once they have seen how it is done, they would check the next time. The last time I travelled on a train with reserved seats, (two days ago), I observed that once the more deisreable unreserved seats were taken, freshly boarding passengers started reading the tickets, (indicators on Pendolinos) and taking the seats. Changing the whole system because a few 'new' passengers don't look at the cards is a bit of an overkill. A publicity campaign to tell passengers to look at the cards would be more productive as it would give better utilisation of seating and more satisfied-customers.

How would it improve the utilisation of seating over just letting those who want a reservation ask for one? It would save a lot of shilly shallying by the guard as well.
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Personally I use VTEC's seat selector, so I pick the seat I want before I travel.

There are times where even if I were to book my ideal seat, that part of the train might be a bit too busy, and I might prefer a less than optimal seat in a quieter area. That's why I generally prefer to keep my options open!

 

[Hadders]

Well in my recent experience, I've been able to get reservations on VTWC & FGW for Off-peak returns. There is no discrimination based on price, just on when you book.

The system works most of the time anyway so why does it need changing? The only practical change for long-distance trains, (where it is more normal for passengers to have luggage, maybe children and possible onward travel connections) would be for all-seating trains. That would be no worse than aircraft , express coaches or Eurostar, so expect it with HS2, (which will also become the turn-up and go service from London to the cities that it serves).
There is no discrimination based on price, just on when you book.

I agree that on the whole the current system works pretty well so I wouldn't look to change it.

Making long distance trains 'reservation compulsory' would be a terrible thing to do. What's a long distance train?

Euston to Milton Keynes on Virgin?
Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly on Virgin?
Wakefield Westgate to Leeds on VTEC?

These trains are also used by short distance passengers too. Compulsory reservations would be unenforceable.

 

[reb0118]

.........Making long distance trains 'reservation compulsory' would be a terrible thing to do. What's a long distance train...........Compulsory reservations would be unenforceable.

NB I am not advocating this for the UK but this is very common abroad and it is by & large enforced. A lot of these "long distance" services are not available for local journeys or if they are then the "intercity" or equivalent reservation/supplement is designed to encourage them on to local trains.

 

[AM9]

I agree that on the whole the current system works pretty well so I wouldn't look to change it.

Making long distance trains 'reservation compulsory' would be a terrible thing to do. What's a long distance train?

Euston to Milton Keynes on Virgin?
Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly on Virgin?
Wakefield Westgate to Leeds on VTEC?

These trains are also used by short distance passengers too. Compulsory reservations would be unenforceable.

It's the local passengers using these services intended for long-distance travellers that create many problems for seat utilisation. Take Paddington to Reading, or Euston to Milton Keynes. Both of those routes have plenty of outer suburban/regional alternatives that really should be used. A passenger occupying a seat from Paddington to just Reading effectively reduces availability of seats for a passenger going to Bristol or Exeter, whose need for seating is far greater, (all other things being equal). The long distance passenger doesn't have the option of other trains.
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NB I am not advocating this for the UK but this is very common abroad and it is by & large enforced. A lot of these "long distance" services are not available for local journeys or if they are then the "intercity" or equivalent reservation/supplement is designed to encourage them on to local trains.

As UK inter-city services from London are getting cluttered up with outer-suburban commuters, that would be a much better idea, combined with set-down or pick-up restrictions that are enforced.
On the WCML, there is an opportunity to separate the two passenger types when HS2 opens, but the situation will get worse when the 800/801/A300s are rolled out on the GWML.
Maybe it's time for universal ticket availability to be limited on lines where there is an inter-city service sharing tracks and stops over the first 50 miles from London, e.g. ECML, MML, WCML, GWML and to a lesser degree the SWML. Many continental systems have had different costs for passengers travelling on IC/Express trains compared to regional trains, (D trains in Germany).

 

[transmanche]

Compulsory reservations would be unenforceable.

ISTR there were compulsory reservations on certain busy InterCity services back in BR days.

If anybody's got a long memory, did it work back then?

 

[Hadders]

We've designed our timetables around making the best use of the capacity available.

Take Reading or Milton Keynes as examples. If inter-city services weren't available to commuters going into London then the inter -city trains would have spare capacity meanwhile commuter trains would be wedged. A sort of Gatwick Express situation where they cart fresh air around meanwhile Brighton 'normal' services are full.

Solution is to run more outer suburban services but there isn't enough spare capacity to run additional services, or the rolling stock to do it either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that on the whole the current system works pretty well so I wouldn't look to change it.

Making long distance trains 'reservation compulsory' would be a terrible thing to do. What's a long distance train?

Euston to Milton Keynes on Virgin?
Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly on Virgin?
Wakefield Westgate to Leeds on VTEC?

These trains are also used by short distance passengers too. Compulsory reservations would be unenforceable.

To me the hybrid of having unmarked reserved seats reservable from a TVM right up to departure plus one or more marked unreserved coaches is looking increasingly attractive. As I get older I am starting to get bored of the boarding scrum, but reserving the day before doesn't work for me.

 

[AM9]

We've designed our timetables around making the best use of the capacity available.

Take Reading or Milton Keynes as examples. If inter-city services weren't available to commuters going into London then the inter -city trains would have spare capacity meanwhile commuter trains would be wedged. A sort of Gatwick Express situation where they cart fresh air around meanwhile Brighton 'normal' services are full.

Not really comparable with Gatwick Express as ultimately, the passengers to Gatwick from either direction have other trains available to use.
Anybody going from PAD to EXD or BRI lines, or EUS to MAN or LIV has no choice but to catch the inter-city services (assuming they aren't cheapskates with plenty of spare time to use LM all the way). The commuters have regular services both non-stop, intermediate and slow services available to them if only going to RDG/MKC but I imagine that they go for the marginally faster inter-city trains if they can. Because The IC services on the WCML are operated by a different TOC opportunity has been taken to restrict access to their trains in the peak, (by making them pick-up only at MKC. FGW on the other hand runs trains that are packed to RDG, squeezing the accomodation meant for those who go much further, as FGW seem reluctant to enforce restrictions that would ensure RDG-only passengers use the trains provided especially for them. EMT also seem to manage to keep commuters that should really be using GTL services of their IC services.
Maybe the secret is to have IC services operated by a different outfit from the more local ones, even BR managed that with IC as a separate organisation. I can remeber those services being pick-up/set-down only at WFJ in the '80s, and those who ignore the restriction would be charged for it.

Solution is to run more outer suburban services but there isn't enough spare capacity to run additional services, or the rolling stock to do it either.

As far as the loadings are concerned, many of the IC trains are less than fully loaded once the commuters empty out meaning that they are over provisioned just to provide the local commuter capacity out of London. If they were scaled down to what the IC loadings required, that would release paths for commuter stock that would have much higher seating capacity, therefore getting more per path. As far as having the right stock to do this is concerned, the current wholsale provisioning of EMUs (including cascaded stock) is an opportunity to rectify the imbalance. For comparison, a 2+8 HST in IC configuration has about 436 seats and is 230m long. A pair of 4-car 387s have about 452 seats and a fair amount of standing room if required in 160m length. If an extra 10m of platform above what the HSTs need was available, the seating capacity could rise to 688 seats with 3x4-car 387s. So a rebalancing of service types would have enough headroom to handle passenger growth for some time. I suspect that the orders for 5-car IC stock point to restructuring the services in the future anyway.

 

[themeone]

Why would anyone buying an Advance ticket not want a seat reservation, given that you're tied to a specific train.

I've often purchased 'walk on' tickets without a reservation as I've not been sure exactly which train I'd be travelling on but with an Advance I'd always request a reservation and so would everyone else.

I've never wanted the reservations that come with AP tickets and would be delighted not to have them forced on me.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Quite simply because I wouldn't want to be stuck in a seat next to a pillar or facing the wrong way etc. Unless the train was going to be particularly busy, why on earth would you want to tie yourself down to a particular seat?

is VTEC unique in offering a choice of seats for the reservation when you book advance tickets ... my last VTEC AP trip was booked approx a month before travel and offered a wide range of seats when it came ot the reservation