Second jab delayed beyond 12 weeks

[yorkie]

Wasn’t there a report claiming that the Pfizer one wasn’t producing antibodies after 12 weeks in immune compromised individuals?

If you are aware of any such report, please do link to it and quote from it.

This does not make any sense to me.

I’d have to hunt it out. For “normal” people the 12 week gap was fine, and justified the decision to delay Pfizer until 12 weeks but there was definitely something about it being questionable for CEV.

Also, can you clarify what CEV means; assuming you mean clinically extremely vulnerable, this encompasses a huge range of individuals with varying conditions.

If you are suggesting that antibody levels need to be kept high in some people, then I think we need more context here; most people do not need antibodies to be able to fight an infection. On the contrary, it is not healthy or normal to have antibodies for every virus we have immunity against to be constantly circulating in our bodies! What actually matters is the ability of memory B cells to recognise the virus and be able to produce antibodies as and when required, and for memory T cells to recognise & destroy infected cells and create more T cells.

A longer gap between doses is more is likely to improve the longevity and strength of this long term memory, compared to a shorter gap between doses.

 

[Huntergreed]

Wasn’t there a report claiming that the Pfizer one wasn’t producing antibodies after 12 weeks in immune compromised individuals? I’d have to hunt it out. For “normal” people the 12 week gap was fine, and justified the decision to delay Pfizer until 12 weeks but there was definitely something about it being questionable for CEV.

As @yorkie quite rightly states, whether there is a detectable antibody presence within the immune system actually makes very little difference.

The important thing is that the immune system will now recognise part of the virus (the spike protein to be precise) if exposed in future. This “memory” is held in B-cells, which can (and should, in the vast, vast majority of cases) produce antibodies to fight off the whole virus when it is exposed.

Whether there are antibodies actually present or not doesn’t matter, what matters is that the B-cells are still able to “remember” the spike protein of the SARS-CoV-2 particles, recognise this as a threat and produce antibodies to deal with it effectively. In all studies shown so far (at least, as far as I’m aware of at the present time), this has shown to be extremely effective at a 3 week gap, 12 week gap, and beyond.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

The report I half-remembered earlier is https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56351084 — I can’t work out how to copy the text of the article on my phone as it opens in the BBC app.

Cancer patients are much less protected against Covid-19 than other people after one dose of the Pfizer vaccine, the first real-world study in this area suggests.

But Cancer Research UK said the small study had not yet been reviewed by other scientists and people undergoing cancer treatment should continue to follow the advice of their doctors.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....the good news is that people who suffer an adverse reaction to the first dose are unlikely to have an adverse reaction to the second dose.....

Confirmed in my case. First dose at about 1515 on 10 Feb. Mild headache, and a slightly distrubed, slightly feverish night that night and a raised temperature and latent headache the next day. Not enough to stop me doing "stuff"; just uncomfotable. Second dose 1400 on 30 April with absolutely no detectable after effects (to press).

 

[cuccir]

When my wife received her invitation for her second jab, she was encouraged to accept it unless absolutely unable to do so as her GP isn't sure when they'll next get some Pfizer. Thankfully she's available on the day that was offered, as her jab comes right at the end of the 12th week but the guidance she looked at it reckoned that's fine.

I suppose there will be a certain percentage of people who are 'lost' between jabs 1 and 2 and will have to start again on jab 1? My wife's experience has put me off using the GP though; I think if they contact me before my age group comes up on the NHS webpage I'll decline so I can get both dates booked in!

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately supply of Pfizer will become problematic now because soon we will reach the end of the order.

 

[Mojo]

I never said that a longer gap would reduce longer term effectiveness, just that it was unlikely to provide any particular benefit, though the studies you've quoted do give pause for thought. With the Pfizer vaccine at least, it feels like it'd be "tweaking around the edges" though when it's 95% effective* at the 3 week interval (presumably it's already higher with the 12 week interval) so chasing a handful of percent by delaying past 12 weeks seems, odd.

Further to this, on the front of The Times from today; scientists have said that delaying the second dose of Pfizer to 12 weeks has caused an immune response up to three times higher in over 80s versus 3 weeks. A US study has also said that delaying any vaccine to 12 weeks could possibly reduce deaths by up to 20%.

 

[yorkie]

Further to this, on the front of The Times from today; scientists have said that delaying the second dose of Pfizer to 12 weeks has caused an immune response up to three times higher in over 80s versus 3 weeks. A US study has also said that delaying any vaccine to 12 weeks could possibly reduce deaths by up to 20%.

That's great to hear.

I listened to immunologists who said a longer gap would likely be beneficial, and I argued with people who rambled on about "following manufacturers instructions", completely losing sight of the fact the shortest possible gap was chosen for the trials because it was an emergency situation and we needed fast results.

I'm going to continue to argue with people who spread false information, having not done their research on this.

There are too many people who won't listen to virologists and immunologists yet will listen to crazed so called "experts" who are anything but!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Further to this, on the front of The Times from today; scientists have said that delaying the second dose of Pfizer to 12 weeks has caused an immune response up to three times higher in over 80s versus 3 weeks. A US study has also said that delaying any vaccine to 12 weeks could possibly reduce deaths by up to 20%.

...and yet the Government's response to the outbreak on Bolton is to try to do the 2nd doses faster there...?

Indian variant: Second jabs could be brought forward to tackle rise

Local restrictions have also not been ruled out in areas worst affected by the Indian variant.

www.bbc.co.uk

Second vaccine doses could be brought forward and local restrictions introduced to help tackle the Indian variant in the worst-affected areas, the UK government has said.

Vaccines Minister Mr Zahawi said the government was also considering reducing the gap between vaccine doses for people in areas where the variant is spreading.