Secrets Of The London Underground.

[102 fan]

Did the Epping-Ongar section really have kilometre posts? I would of thought it would of been mileposts?

It's unusual that the distance was measured from the far end of the line too.

 

[Enthusiast]

Did the Epping-Ongar section really have kilometre posts? I would of thought it would of been milepostsI ?

I believe the switch from miles was made in the early 1970s, in preparation for the country's imminent conversion to full metrication!

 

[swt_passenger]

Did the Epping-Ongar section really have kilometre posts? I would of thought it would of been mileposts?

It's unusual that the distance was measured from the far end of the line too.

In the 1970s they remapped the whole LU system in kilometres based on Ongar, with defined places to transfer the measurement to other lines. Because it was the furthest distance possible from the central area it ensured that nowhere on the entire system would have to deal with negative numbers.

I think I read somewhere it would have been equally possible to measure everything from the left of the map, based on Amersham - or maybe Chesham.

 

[102 fan]

I stand corrected! Thank you.

 

[edwin_m]

Just as well they didn't decide to renumber the Elizabeth Line on the same system, otherwise Shenfield would have been well into negative territory.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just as well they didn't decide to renumber the Elizabeth Line on the same system, otherwise Shenfield would have been well into negative territory.

I just checked using Google maps and I think it’s ok, would need about another 4 km to go negative.

 

[Dstock7080]

Just as well they didn't decide to renumber the Elizabeth Line on the same system, otherwise Shenfield would have been well into negative territory.

Upminster depot has a "12.0", although there should be lower numbers but nothing found

 

[timmydunn]

Some of the objects in LTM collection relating to Epping to Ongar (inc the original KM plate, which is on display at covent garden atm in the hidden london exhibition) are shown in this article https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collecti...ise-ongar-and-easternmost-branch-central-line .

talking of oddities - for tomorrow night's intro sequence i got the guys to unbox the large 1990s scale model of Farringdon Crossrail with the class 341 in it, in the museum store. Episode includes a roam around various bits of subterranean KGX (not enough time to show our very long day's exploration as ever, alas) but the Met line goods siding, and the old Thameslink station c/o Network Rail folks, both made the final cut.

 

[102 fan]

Some of the objects in LTM collection relating to Epping to Ongar (inc the original KM plate, which is on display at covent garden atm in the hidden london exhibition) are shown in this article https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collecti...ise-ongar-and-easternmost-branch-central-line .

talking of oddities - for tomorrow night's intro sequence i got the guys to unbox the large 1990s scale model of Farringdon Crossrail with the class 341 in it, in the museum store. Episode includes a roam around various bits of subterranean KGX (not enough time to show our very long day's exploration as ever, alas) but the Met line goods siding, and the old Thameslink station c/o Network Rail folks, both made the final cut.

View attachment 115886 View attachment 115887

Looking forward to it! Even Mrs 102 fan watches with me.

 

[BoroAndy]

Is this a new series of SOTLU??

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is this a new series of SOTLU??

Yes. Now into its second series. Think we're up to episode 6 (of 10) tonight.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just watched the latest episode on catch-up, I was surprised when they were at the disused NR Kings Cross Thameslink that they didn’t mention the former Metropolitan platforms, the down platform back wall being on the edge of the original fairly narrow central island.

Is the former Metroplitan Kings Cross station an LU intervention point, (like Marlborough Road that they went on to explain in some detail later)?

 

[edwin_m]

Just watched the latest episode on catch-up, I was surprised when they were at the disused NR Kings Cross Thameslink that they didn’t mention the former Metropolitan platforms, the down platform back wall being on the edge of the original fairly narrow central island.

Is the former Metroplitan Kings Cross station an LU intervention point, (like Marlborough Road that they went on to explain in some detail later)?

There is certainly still access to the platforms - it was on one of the Hidden London Hangout videos. To be fair, they did mention that the Thameslink station was on the site of the original Metropolitan station and I think they showed a couple of photos. Probably another case of how much can be said in an hour without getting too specialist or trying to cover too much.

 

[londonbridge]

I’ve really enjoyed the last two episodes focussing on London Bridge and Kings X as I use both stations regularly and I’ve learnt a hell of a lot about them from these two shows, some of which has helped to explain a few things that I’d always wondered about.

 

[kevin_roche]

Just caught up with the episodes I had recorded. Enjoyed the episode about Brompton Road, London Bridge and Kings X. I was disappoted that one of the other episodes failed to record on my Sattelite receiver. I will have to find it on Play.

 

[Mikey C]

Really enjoyed the feature on Angel station, as I had the dubious pleasure of having to regularly use the old station in the late 80s! When compared to other disused stations and passageways elsewhere which closed 100 years ago, it's in pretty poor condition, but then to be fair the passageways were in an awful condition when in actual use

 

[timmydunn]

Probably another case of how much can be said in an hour without getting too specialist or trying to cover too much.

Yup - there's a lot of ground to cover esp at King's Cross (!). I personally like the approach the editorial team take, which is to show a broad variety of what we've seen, go deep on a couple of items but hopefully inspire those who really want to know more, to do their own research. If it was a show made exclusively for people who love railways and urbex then we could have shown an awful lot more and indeed spent several days filming there. But we have other topics and locations to get on to show, and more stories to tell. Chris Nix and his team do an excellent job on their Hangouts of going deeper on several related topics, so that's a natural next destination for the curious mind.

This week... I head off to home turf, up the Met. Don't expect a Betjeman-esque love-letter; that I will leave for another day.

 

[kwrail]

Another excellent episode and it really has settled down well. They have got the balance right between keeping both the casual viewer and the rail enthusiast interested. It is basically two children being let loose in the sweet shop.

Still expect to see a guest appearance by Geoff Marshall at some point

 

[Mikey C]

Yup - there's a lot of ground to cover esp at King's Cross (!). I personally like the approach the editorial team take, which is to show a broad variety of what we've seen, go deep on a couple of items but hopefully inspire those who really want to know more, to do their own research. If it was a show made exclusively for people who love railways and urbex then we could have shown an awful lot more and indeed spent several days filming there. But we have other topics and locations to get on to show, and more stories to tell. Chris Nix and his team do an excellent job on their Hangouts of going deeper on several related topics, so that's a natural next destination for the curious mind.

This week... I head off to home turf, up the Met. Don't expect a Betjeman-esque love-letter; that I will leave for another day.

You, Siddy and the producers do an excellent job. Well done

Just catching up on the first episode of the series on UKTV Play which I had missed, and intrigued that there was a warning in the App that it contained "mature themes"!

Clearly the Kennington Loop is X rated stuff

 

[102 fan]

You, Siddy and the producers do an excellent job. Well done

Just catching up on the first episode of the series on UKTV Play which I had missed, and intrigued that there was a warning in the App that it contained "mature themes"!

Clearly the Kennington Loop is X rated stuff

I've heard many X rated tales about the goings on in the Kennington loop....

 

[BoroAndy]

I have nearly caught up on series 2. One story that intrigues me is the Epping-Ongar story, which leads to a couple of questions. 1. When did through trains from London to Ongar stop and become all change at Epping. 2. When were rails 3 and 4 removed relative to the line closing, and could they be put back so the line could be heritage for all LU history with retained other stock making appearances.
Also, can the general public visit the museum depot, as they can the transport museum?

 

[Wolfie]

Really enjoyed the feature on Angel station, as I had the dubious pleasure of having to regularly use the old station in the late 80s! When compared to other disused stations and passageways elsewhere which closed 100 years ago, it's in pretty poor condition, but then to be fair the passageways were in an awful condition when in actual use

The old Angel station was bloody awful. Dilapidated, ramshackle, rundown and border line downright dangerous. The decrepit lifts were particularly "entertaining".

 

[Mikey C]

Also, can the general public visit the museum depot, as they can the transport museum?

The museum depot has special "open days" where you can visit it

Museum Depot | London Transport Museum

The Museum Depot at Acton holds the majority of the Museum's collections which are not on display in the Museum in Covent Garden. Only open for special events and guided tours throughout the year.

www.ltmuseum.co.uk

 

[edwin_m]

I have nearly caught up on series 2. One story that intrigues me is the Epping-Ongar story, which leads to a couple of questions. 1. When did through trains from London to Ongar stop and become all change at Epping. 2. When were rails 3 and 4 removed relative to the line closing, and could they be put back so the line could be heritage for all LU history with retained other stock making appearances.
Also, can the general public visit the museum depot, as they can the transport museum?

I believe it was on electrification. It was done on the cheap (presumably explaining the story about the lights dimming as the train took power) and wouldn't support full-length trains, so there was a change at Epping onto a shuttle formed by a shorter train. Last week's programme briefly showed an old Tube map from around the time of conversion showing the the line to Ongar as continuous, but I don't know if that indicated an intent to run a through service or just a simplification on the map. From as far back as I can remember (1970s) Epping was shown as back to back termini.

Fourth rail electrification of the preserved line would effectively be a new project not a reinstatement, and I think ORR would look unfavourably on the idea if the operator wanted to do so (which I'm not suggesting they do!). As well as the "presumption" against new live rail systems, there's a lot of scrutiny of the safety management systems of heritage operators in general (though I have no reason to believe this particular one has any issues). So the one operating the other might start ringing some alarm bells.

 

[brewer85]

My partner and I are loving this series; if anything, it's even better than the first, such a variety of locations and topics. We went on a tour of the Kingsway Subway too a few weeks back, well worth doing, it's incredible what survives out of sight. As Siddy said, incredible to think we lost an entire network of electric trams, the likes of which we'd give our eye teeth for today!

 

[John Webb]

Beck's map of 1949 shows the Central line open to Loughton together with the Hainalt loop. Loughton-Ongar is still "Under construction". On the 1951/52 maps there is the shuttle service from Epping to Ongar. This continues through subsequent published maps, including those prepared by Paul Garbutt, until the Epping-Ongar section closed in September 1994.

Information from Alan Jackson's "London's Local Railways" (2nd Ed., Capital Transport, 1999) explains that the line switched over to the tube in various stages, reaching Leytonstone in May 1947, when there were steam shuttles onwards to Ongar, cut back to Woodford and then by November 1948 to Loughton. Epping was reached by electrification in September 1949. Steam shuttles by BR using GER locos and LNER stock continued until November 1957. The line was then electrically fed from Epping and could support two 4-car units, which passed at North Weald. Finance (or lack of it) reduced the service to just the one train from October 1976. From December 1982 it was a Rush-hour only service and closure came in September 1994. Alan Jackson does not mention when the conductor rails were removed.

 

[ashkeba]

My partner and I are loving this series; if anything, it's even better than the first, such a variety of locations and topics. We went on a tour of the Kingsway Subway too a few weeks back, well worth doing, it's incredible what survives out of sight. As Siddy said, incredible to think we lost an entire network of electric trams, the likes of which we'd give our eye teeth for today!

Was there ever a schematic map of the trams like the tube map? The map seen on screen was rather congested in zone 1 and difficult to decode.

 

[Busaholic]

I have nearly caught up on series 2. One story that intrigues me is the Epping-Ongar story, which leads to a couple of questions. 1. When did through trains from London to Ongar stop and become all change at Epping.

Through workings from London to Ongar by steam train (fourteen per weekday) ceased when the Central Line was extended as far as Epping. Later on, when Epping to Ongar was electrified, but on the cheap, there was a through service to and from North Weald when the annual weekend Air Show took place, but it had to be by a 4-car train operating as an 'extra'. I'm not sure when that ceased.

 

[Dstock7080]

Was there ever a schematic map of the trams like the tube map? The map seen on screen was rather congested in zone 1 and difficult to decode.

LT only produced geographic "Trolleybus & Tram route maps"

 

[bramling]

I believe it was on electrification. It was done on the cheap (presumably explaining the story about the lights dimming as the train took power) and wouldn't support full-length trains, so there was a change at Epping onto a shuttle formed by a shorter train. Last week's programme briefly showed an old Tube map from around the time of conversion showing the the line to Ongar as continuous, but I don't know if that indicated an intent to run a through service or just a simplification on the map. From as far back as I can remember (1970s) Epping was shown as back to back termini.

Fourth rail electrification of the preserved line would effectively be a new project not a reinstatement, and I think ORR would look unfavourably on the idea if the operator wanted to do so (which I'm not suggesting they do!). As well as the "presumption" against new live rail systems, there's a lot of scrutiny of the safety management systems of heritage operators in general (though I have no reason to believe this particular one has any issues). So the one operating the other might start ringing some alarm bells.

There was a plan for a substation at Blake Hall, but it was never provided. This left the line as a 6-mile single-end fed section, which was always going to impose limitations on what could work there.