Services advertised as terminating at penultimate station

[greaterwest]

As I recall they are advertised as Addlestone trains at Waterloo and at least as far as Clapham Junction, and maybe as far as Putney, Barnes or even Hounslow, but thereafter they are announced as Weybridge trains.

I would guess that in the other direction they are advertised as Brentford, Barnes or Putney trains at Weybridge, and maybe at Addlestone and Chertsey.

It is advertised as an Addlestone via Hounslow train at Waterloo only now. Weybridge everywhere else.

In the other direction, it is a Barnes via Hounslow train at Weybridge and a London Waterloo train everywhere else.

Likewise, they are advertised as Frimley trains at Waterloo and Clapham Junction, then Aldershot at least as far as Richmond, Guildford thereafter. This was certainly the case in the days of regular through trains via Frimley under BR, but these days there is only the odd peak hour through train via the Frimley line.

In the other direction I would expect them to be advertised as Richmond trains at least as far as Aldershot.

These are advertised as Frimley trains at Waterloo. In the opposite direction, there is no false destination (it is a London via Staines service)

And in the anticlockwise direction (I think) it's advertised as a Kingston service as far as Richmond, where it becomes a Wimbledon service, then at Kingston it becomes a Waterloo via Wimbledon service.

Then there is the Waterloo-Waterloo via Hounslow service. As I recall in the clockwise direction it is announced as a Hounslow via Richmond service, then at Whitton it becomes a Waterloo via Hounslow service, and in the anticlockwise direction it is announced simply as a Hounslow service as far as Barnes, then at Barnes Bridge it becomes a Richmond via Hounslow service and at Hounslow it becomes a Waterloo via Richmond service.

The loops are a little more complicated.

The clockwise Kingston loop is a Strawberry Hill train until Clapham Junction. After Clapham it is a Richmond via Kingston train, then London Waterloo via Richmond from Kingston.
Anticlockwise Kingston loop is a Teddington train until Clapham Junction. After Clapham it is a Wimbledon via Kingston train until Strawberry Hill, then London Waterloo via Wimbledon from there.

The clockwise Hounslow loop is a Hounslow via Richmond train until Barnes. After Barnes it is a Chiswick service and at Whitton only it is a Barnes Bridge service. After that it is a London Waterloo service.
Anticlockwise Hounslow loop is a Hounslow via Brentford train until Barnes. After Barnes it is a Hounslow service. At Brentford and Syon Lane it is a Mortlake service then from Hounslow it is a London Waterloo service.

 

[AY1975]

It is advertised as an Addlestone via Hounslow train at Waterloo only now. Weybridge everywhere else.

In the other direction, it is a Barnes via Hounslow train at Weybridge and a London Waterloo train everywhere else.


These are advertised as Frimley trains at Waterloo. In the opposite direction, there is no false destination (it is a London via Staines service)


The loops are a little more complicated.

The clockwise Kingston loop is a Strawberry Hill train until Clapham Junction. After Clapham it is a Richmond via Kingston train, then London Waterloo via Richmond from Kingston.
Anticlockwise Kingston loop is a Teddington train until Clapham Junction. After Clapham it is a Wimbledon via Kingston train until Strawberry Hill, then London Waterloo via Wimbledon from there.

The clockwise Hounslow loop is a Hounslow via Richmond train until Barnes. After Barnes it is a Chiswick service and at Whitton only it is a Barnes Bridge service. After that it is a London Waterloo service.
Anticlockwise Hounslow loop is a Hounslow via Brentford train until Barnes. After Barnes it is a Hounslow service. At Brentford and Syon Lane it is a Mortlake service then from Hounslow it is a London Waterloo service.

Then there is the even more complicated Sundays-only hourly Waterloo-Hounslow-Twickenham-Kingston service. For this one my guess would be going towards Kingston, advertised as a Hounslow service until Barnes, then a Twickenham via Hounslow from Barnes Bridge until Isleworth, then a Kingston service, and in the other direction a Hounslow via Twickenham service until Strawberry Hill, then a Waterloo via Hounslow service.

 

[Western Sunset]

Back in the days when there was a Poole-Waterloo stopper/semi-fast, the destination was shown as Farnborough to encourage through London passengers to catch the faster (later) train.

 

[norbitonflyer]

A curiosity of the Kingston Loop services is that they are advertsied at Waterloo to one stop further than they are actually useful. Strawberry Hill via Kingston, and Teddington via Richmond. But is its quicker to go to Teddington via Kingston, and to Strawberry Hill via Richmond. (The trains are actually schedukled to pass between those two stations!) The latter is also cheaper, as Strawberry Hill is in Zone 5 but Kingtson, Hampton Wick and Teddington are in Zone 6!

Back in the 1970s, I was surprised to see, on boarding an Aylesbury train at High Wycombe, that the destination blind said "Little Kimble". Sutrprised first of all that anyone would bother with having it on a blind in the first place. But mostly because the only station from which the train was not the quickest way to Aylesbury was Marylebone, and few if any passengers joining the train there would see the front destination blind anyway.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

A curiosity of the Kingston Loop services is that they are advertsied at Waterloo to one stop further than they are actually useful. Strawberry Hill via Kingston, and Teddington via Richmond. But is its quicker to go to Teddington via Kingston, and to Strawberry Hill via Richmond. (The trains are actually schedukled to pass between those two stations!) The latter is also cheaper, as Strawberry Hill is in Zone 5 but Kingtson, Hampton Wick and Teddington are in Zone 6!

Back in the 1970s, I was surprised to see, on boarding an Aylesbury train at High Wycombe, that the destination blind said "Little Kimble". Sutrprised first of all that anyone would bother with having it on a blind in the first place. But mostly because the only station from which the train was not the quickest way to Aylesbury was Marylebone, and few if any passengers joining the train there would see the front destination blind anyway.

Are there 2 fares available from Waterloo to Strawberry hill. If not which fare is changed and if it's the cheapest is it valid by both routes or must one travel via Richmond.

 

[30907]

Are there 2 fares available from Waterloo to Strawberry hill. If not which fare is changed and if it's the cheapest is it valid by both routes or must one travel via Richmond.

There are cheaper VIA RICHMOND fares - whether these existed before the Zones were created I don't know. The ANY PERMITTED fare is valid both ways, as is the Teddington fare.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

There are cheaper VIA RICHMOND fares - whether these existed before the Zones were created I don't know. The ANY PERMITTED fare is valid both ways, as is the Teddington fare.

Thanks I must try this on one of the ticket machines to see what I am offered. Just for fun as I have a freedom pass

 

[GN Boy]

And I think the Kings Cross-Cambridge stoppers used to be advertised as Foxton ex Kings Cross (and Finsbury Park ex Cambridge?). Do they still do this?
Are there any examples where this practice does not pertain but arguably should?

They certainly did! These days, they are simply advertised as Kings Cross or Cambridge.

 

[Kite159]

Are there 2 fares available from Waterloo to Strawberry hill. If not which fare is changed and if it's the cheapest is it valid by both routes or must one travel via Richmond.

I suspect it's simply one of those cases if someone touches in at Waterloo/Vauxhall/Clapham and touches out at Strawberry Hill the backend system won't know which way that passenger took and will charge the lower of the two fares when using PAYG.

 

[PeterC]

When I commuted from Shenfield in Network SouthEast days stoppers were always announced as "all stations to Maryland" although the boards always gave Stratford and Liverpool Street as well.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I suspect it's simply one of those cases if someone touches in at Waterloo/Vauxhall/Clapham and touches out at Strawberry Hill the backend system won't know which way that passenger took and will charge the lower of the two fares when using PAYG.

two fares are quoted for point to point season tickets, the lower fare not valid via Kingston.

And of course if you have a Z1-5 (or Z2-5) Travelcard you would not be valid via Kingston, although it would only be an issue if a ticket collector found you between Kingston and Teddington inclusive.

Given its proximity to central London, the whole loop should be in Zone 5 anyway. (Kingston is the only station within a ten mile radius of Charing Cross to be in Zone 6 - most stations that close in are in Zone 4!) an anomaly that SWT have resolutely refused to address, giving such spurious excuses as:

- TfL won't let them (TfL say its up to the operator to propose it, as southern did on the Tattengham Croner and Epsom Downs lines)- they would have to agree it with other operators in the area (other than London Buses, there are none: in desperation, they suggested Turks boat services, which run once a day, summer only, and the first boat from Kingston gets to Westminster after the last boat back has left! - the service is designed for tourists visiting Hampton Court from central London)
- they would have to increase the fares soemwhere else to compensate (how about, you know, not shovelling quite so much unearned dividends into the shareholders pockets?)

 

[dk1]

When I commuted from Shenfield in Network SouthEast days stoppers were always announced as "all stations to Maryland" although the boards always gave Stratford and Liverpool Street as well.

Still seems odd seeing ‘Paddington’ on most GE Metro services even though it’s been almost a year now.

Talking of Shenfield, that was the destination shown on Peterborough to Liverpool St class 170 services at stations between Peterborough and Ely inclusive when they operated from 2004-2011.

 

[Colin1501]

This used to be the case with Charing Cross to Ramsgate services which divided at Ashford. One portion ran via Canterbury West, while the other went round the coast via Folkestone, Dover and Deal, reaching the same destination some 30 minutes later than the Canterbury portion. The slower portion was advertised as terminating at Sandwich, to direct Ramsgate passengers to the faster portion.

 

[miklcct]

This used to be the case with Charing Cross to Ramsgate services which divided at Ashford. One portion ran via Canterbury West, while the other went round the coast via Folkestone, Dover and Deal, reaching the same destination some 30 minutes later than the Canterbury portion. The slower portion was advertised as terminating at Sandwich, to direct Ramsgate passengers to the faster portion.

This is still the case at St Pancras advertising Ramsgate (via Dover) trains as Sandwich, which utterly confuses me, even if a direct Ramsgate train isn't due soon.

 

[mister-sparky]

This used to be the case with Charing Cross to Ramsgate services which divided at Ashford. One portion ran via Canterbury West, while the other went round the coast via Folkestone, Dover and Deal, reaching the same destination some 30 minutes later than the Canterbury portion. The slower portion was advertised as terminating at Sandwich, to direct Ramsgate passengers to the faster portion.

Still the case today

 

[northwichcat]

I would question whether everyone arriving at Leeds for what's advertised as a York service, would realise a Poppleton service calls at Harrogate on the way.

The Merseyrail Wirral line services run a circular route around Liverpool. This means if you're travelling from Chester to Lime Street, the train is announced as a service to Liverpool Central. However, once it arrives at James Street the train annoucements switch to saying it's a service to Chester, despite not yet having reached Liverpool Central.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There by and large aren’t automated announcements on the 170s but the guard will announce it as its actual destination.

There are now. I wonder if anything has changed in terms of false destination advertising.

Frimley trains continue to Guildford (again quicker direct)

They continue to Farnham actually

But it can be confusing to the unwary traveller. On the one occasion I travelled to Harrogate from London I had carefully verified with my itinerary that at Leeds I must catch the xx.yy service to York. I had no idea of railway geography in that area. Jumped off the London train and went to the departure boards. Could I see the xx.yy service to York? Could I heck. How am I supposed to know that a train to a place I've never heard of (Poppleton) is going to take me to Harrogate? I forget how I worked it out, but I did catch the right train!

I agree. I also think destinations changing in on board PIS and announcements throughout the journey will be immensely confusing to some, especially on loop lines. Someone could be travelling on a Kingston or Hounslow loop service out of Waterloo only for the announcements to suddenly announce Waterloo as the destination - the place where they started!

In the other direction I would expect them to be advertised as Richmond trains at least as far as Aldershot.

Nope. Aldershot is my local station (hometown is Farnham but the station's out of the way), and I often turn up at the time when this is running. It is indeed advertised as the 07:00 to London Waterloo. I, sensibly, wait for the 07:04 via Woking

 

[northwichcat]

But it can be confusing to the unwary traveller. On the one occasion I travelled to Harrogate from London I had carefully verified with my itinerary that at Leeds I must catch the xx.yy service to York. I had no idea of railway geography in that area. Jumped off the London train and went to the departure boards. Could I see the xx.yy service to York? Could I heck. How am I supposed to know that a train to a place I've never heard of (Poppleton) is going to take me to Harrogate? I forget how I worked it out, but I did catch the right train!

Sorry I missed your post before I wrote the below.

I would question whether everyone arriving at Leeds for what's advertised as a York service, would realise a Poppleton service calls at Harrogate on the way.

The correct destination should be specified at any intermediate station (eg Harrogate). From there, the destination should simply be Leeds/York.

Yes but the long distance (non-local) passengers will be normally be catching the service from Leeds and York. A local passenger might be travelling from Burley Park to Harrogate and then they may well know the next northbound service is going to Harrogate, so might get on even if the next train turning up at the relevant platform, even if it's showing Birmingham is showing on the destination display.

Those trains in question on destination boards usually will say 'via Harrogate' at Leeds/York.

Looking at the calling points I think there's perhaps three stations non-locals might travel to in significant numbers - Harrogate, Knaresborough and Headingley.

A more sensible approach would be to put the service as going to York/Leeds via Harrogate and then underneath put "Local stopping service. Next fast service to York/Leeds is...."

 

[MikeWM]

I noticed yesterday at Peterborough that the Doncaster via Lincoln service was advertised as a service to Gainsborough Lea Road. Which makes sense, but as I wasn't expecting it that did confuse me for a second.

(I don't recall the converse being true - ie. that these services are advertised at Doncaster as being for Spalding. At least I don't recall that being the case the last time I got one, probably a couple of years back, maybe that has changed).

 

[30907]

Looking at the calling points I think there's perhaps three stations non-locals might travel to in significant numbers - Harrogate, Knaresborough and Headingley.

And there is a large departures board listing alphabetically those stations with next train and platform (and pretty much everywhere else).
I agree Poppleton via H'gate (or Harrogate then York) would be desirable if it fits on the line.

 

[RailWonderer]

If it did survive until the truncation to Didcot Parkway, I wonder why “Radley” was deemed appropriate but “Cholsey” was not.

Radley used to be and now Cholsey is used, GWR carried on doing it.

Talking of Shenfield, that was the destination shown on Peterborough to Liverpool St class 170 services at stations between Peterborough and Ely inclusive when they operated from 2004-2011.

Oddly enough NX didn’t do it the other way around and Peterborough services were labelled P’boro via Ipswich and not Whittlesey.

 

[Gaelan]

Are there any examples where this practice does not pertain but arguably should?

I'd make an argument for Edinburgh-Glasgow. Currently, you get:

• Glasgow Central via Motherwell
• Glasgow Central via Shotts
• Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High
• Helensburgh Central/Milngavie (calling at Glasgow Queen Street)

Queen St via Falkirk High is fastest by far, but that's not immediately obvious to a non-local.

 

[Peter0124]

I'd make an argument for Edinburgh-Glasgow. Currently, you get:

• Glasgow Central via Motherwell
• Glasgow Central via Shotts
• Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High
• Helensburgh Central/Milngavie (calling at Glasgow Queen Street)

Queen St via Falkirk High is fastest by far, but that's not immediately obvious to a non-local.

What would you advertise the Bathgate services as considering they don't terminate in Glasgow.

The express Shotts (coming in Dec) should continue to be advertised as Glasgow Central, so those needing connections at Central don't have to worry about a walk down Buchanan Street.

Though I can see an argument for making the stoppers "Uddingston" or "Cambuslang"

 

[Gaelan]

What would you advertise the Bathgate services as considering they don't terminate in Glasgow.

Probably leave them be, to be honest - presumably having Glasgow somewhere in the calling point list is less likely to be misleading then having it prominently as the destination.

(To be honest I'm not 100% convinced false destinations are a good idea, period; a major city serves as a useful landmark, even if you wouldn't want to go there.)

 

[peterblue]

I don't support adding any new false destinations. It's a confusing practice. Just advertise the fastest service as an express somehow (e.g. Glasgow EXPRESS via Falkirk High)

 

[IanXC]

I would question whether everyone arriving at Leeds for what's advertised as a York service, would realise a Poppleton service calls at Harrogate on the way.

What makes you think someone at Leeds looking for a service to Harrogate would realise some York services call at Harrogate?

 

[northwichcat]

What makes you think someone at Leeds looking for a service to Harrogate would realise some York services call at Harrogate?

1. Journey planners will sometimes say xx:xx service towards York.
2. Pdf timetables (and printed where available) highlight the first and final station on the line.
3. Someone who has used the line before is more likely to remember it ends at York, rather than it calls at Poppleton between Harrogate and York.

 

[GordonT]

What makes you think someone at Leeds looking for a service to Harrogate would realise some York services call at Harrogate?

What I think it does do is highlights the folly of pretending that an entire service terminates at some unlikely shack with a, let's face it, fairly ludicrous name. I'd go for advertising it York via Harrogate with more high profile promotion at Leeds of faster options for York pax. Likewise at York it would be Leeds via Harrogate rather than Burley Park.

 

[40fan]

I remember hearing announcements at Crewe that tickets to Liverpool were not valid on the Northern service from Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly. Of course they were but would the public want to spend 180 minutes or more on a slow train when the mainline trains would get them there in about 40 minutes.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I remember hearing announcements at Crewe that tickets to Liverpool were not valid on the Northern service from Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly. Of course they were but would the public want to spend 180 minutes or more on a slow train when the mainline trains would get them there in about 40 minutes.

Were they? Don't you have to buy the more expensive route "via Manchester" ticket to travel from Crewe to Liverpool Stns via Manchester Piccadilly?

The appreciably cheaper alternative seems to be route "NOT via Manchester" variant.