Services to be reinstated too late for schools and colleges returning.

[175001]

142s cannot operate on their own no more on the mid Cheshire line. The dispensation didn't cover that line. So it'll be coupled up to a PRMd unit

 

[peters]

142s cannot operate on their own no more on the mid Cheshire line. The dispensation didn't cover that line. So it'll be coupled up to a PRMd unit

I thought they needed dispensation to be used on any services even if attached to another train.

I get the bit about the intention being that they will be 4 carriage formations but like I keep saying if the previous/next service isn't operating then 4 carriages instead of 2 isn't extra capacity. Additionally while passenger numbers are expected to be lower overall if overall capacity is reduced (by using a smaller type of train) and passengers are supposed to social distance then how is it supposed to work?

We also used to get some unexpected overcrowded trains on the Altrincham route whenever a service was cancelled on the Chester to Warrington to Manchester route, that doesn't happen as often since the Chester to Leeds service has been introduced. If Chester to Leeds stays 2 hourly and runs the hours the Mid-Cheshire doesn't (which it looks like it might) then we may start getting the same problem again if one of the trains to and from Wales doesn't operate for any reason.

 

[Greybeard33]

I thought they needed dispensation to be used on any services even if attached to another train.

I get the bit about the intention being that they will be 4 carriage formations but like I keep saying if the previous/next service isn't operating then 4 carriages instead of 2 isn't extra capacity. Additionally while passenger numbers are expected to be lower overall if overall capacity is reduced (by using a smaller type of train) and passengers are supposed to social distance then how is it supposed to work?

We also used to get some unexpected overcrowded trains on the Altrincham route whenever a service was cancelled on the Chester to Warrington to Manchester route, that doesn't happen as often since the Chester to Leeds service has been introduced. If Chester to Leeds stays 2 hourly and runs the hours the Mid-Cheshire doesn't (which it looks like it might) then we may start getting the same problem again if one of the trains to and from Wales doesn't operate for any reason.

Northern has received a dispensation for its remaining 142s to be used on any route until 31 December 2020, so long as they are coupled to a PRM-compliant unit.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/888684/northern-class-142-2020-dispensation-letter.pdf

 

[175001]

They have dispensation to run on their own only on Southport - Alderley Edge/Stalybridge in extreme circumstances

The dispensation applies to operation of the vehicles by Northern Trains Limited only and restricts operation so that they are only scheduled to operate when coupled with compliant units, unless operated on services between Southport and Alderley Edge or Southport and Stalybridge

 

[jonnyfan]

The additional 0818 departure from Stockport to Chester starts from 31st August, updated timetable now on the Northern website. Details of further service increases from 14th September not published yet

 

[Jamesrob637]

The additional 0818 departure from Stockport to Chester starts from 31st August, updated timetable now on the Northern website. Details of further service increases from 14th September not published yet

Any need to run it on a Bank Holiday Monday? Or is it from Tuesday 01 September?

 

[peters]

Any need to run it on a Bank Holiday Monday? Or is it from Tuesday 01 September?

There may be a lot of demand for Bank Holiday services, they are usually very well used partly due to non-existent Bank Holiday bus services on many routes. While I don't expect the 08:18 Stockport to Chester to get many passengers maybe the return working of 10:02 Chester to Manchester will be popular, that is if passengers know it's running!

I still don't get why it's the 08:18 Stockport to Chester they are reinstating not the 07:41 Manchester to Chester even ignoring the scholars the latter works for a 9am start in both Knutsford and Northwich but the one they are reinstating only works for a 9am start in Knutsford and even then that presumes your workplace is in the town centre and not out at Booths Hall or Parkgate.

 

[jonnyfan]

Any need to run it on a Bank Holiday Monday? Or is it from Tuesday 01 September?

Northern run a full weekday service on Bank Holidays, treated as a normal working day in terms of timetable and rostering

(apart from Xmas day and Boxing day of course)

 

[185]

Used Northern's 2132 Liverpool Manchester the other day, in the absence of any TPE or EMR running.

What a mistake

Didn't realise, but it was the absolute last weekday train of the night between these two huge cities, squashed onto a 323 - full and standing to St Helens Central.

Finally had a reply (FOI) yesterday from the DfT which elaborates on their previous (vague) answer that there is no train service level agreement specified by the DfT for Northern, the company is simply allowed produce a timetable and the DfT approve it. This contradicts with the claim by Northern that "we only run the trains the DfT tell us to." Other (since disproven) claims of short staffing and statements like 'there could be engineering work' have really not answered why the North is getting such a poor (or zero) service after 9pm compared to the midlands and south.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The Barclays boss told Bloomberg, around a week ago, that 3/4 of his staff are working from home and it's important to phase them back in to workplaces 'by Christmas.'

The only Barclays staff onsite at Radbroke Hall at present are security and a skeleton staff in the Command Centre

 

[Greybeard33]

I still don't get why it's the 08:18 Stockport to Chester they are reinstating not the 07:41 Manchester to Chester even ignoring the scholars the latter works for a 9am start in both Knutsford and Northwich but the one they are reinstating only works for a 9am start in Knutsford and even then that presumes your workplace is in the town centre and not out at Booths Hall or Parkgate.

The 0818 from Stockport arrives at Altrincham at 0835 and Hale at 0838. These times are convenient for the substantial number of pupils who travel from Stockport to Altrincham Grammar School for Boys, Altrincham Grammar School for Girls and the Loreto Grammar School.

 

[peters]

There are also large pupil flows in the opposite direction, from Cheshire to Hale and Altrincham for the Altrincham grammar schools. They will have to use the 0651 Chester to Piccadilly service (0735 from Knutsford), in competition with commuters to Manchester.
...
The 0818 from Stockport arrives at Altrincham at 0835 and Hale at 0838. These times are convenient for the substantial number of pupils who travel from Stockport to Altrincham Grammar School for Boys, Altrincham Grammar School for Girls and the Loreto Grammar School.

I wasn't aware of a significant flow to the Altrincham schools from the Stockport direction. How are the schools going to handle this?

Pupils from Cheshire will arrive at Altrincham at 07:50 and will need to get either the 15:09 or 17:09 train home.

Pupils from Stockport will arrive at Altrincham at 08:36 and will need to get either the 16:00 train home.

Plus other pupils use bus services.

 

[Greybeard33]

I wasn't aware of a significant flow to the Altrincham schools from the Stockport direction. How are the schools going to handle this?

Pupils from Cheshire will arrive at Altrincham at 07:50 and will need to get either the 15:09 or 17:09 train home.

Pupils from Stockport will arrive at Altrincham at 08:36 and will need to get either the 16:00 train home.

Plus other pupils use bus services.

From personal observation, the 1600 from Altrincham used to be well loaded pre-Covid, although pupils with afterschool activities would get the 1700. Some changed at Stockport on to the following service from Buxton, for onward travel to Heaton Chapel or Levenshulme.

Places at the Altrincham schools are highly sought after by parents resident in Stockport and Manchester, as well as Cheshire parents.

Many pupils from Cheshire used to get the 0716 Chester to Stockport peak extra, arriving Hale 0819 and Altrincham 0822. But it appears that service will not be restored before December, so as you say they will have to use the earlier 0651 Chester to Piccadilly. Pre-Covid, that was the most popular service with Manchester commuters, so we will have to hope that sufficient working from home continues to avoid overcrowding.

In the afternoon, the 1509 from Altrincham / 1512 from Hale is too early for the grammar schools' finishing times. With a 2-hour gap to the next service, I fear that the 1641 from Piccadilly (also popular with Manchester commuters) will be rammed between Hale and Knutsford, especially if two of the four carriages are only 16m long (Class 142 Pacer).

 

[Taunton]

I think you misunderstood me. I said that many people *without* children of school age will go on holiday in early September when it is cheaper. And there’s are more adults (a lot more) without school age children in this country than there are *with* school age children.

And that’s why the first two weeks of September are quieter than than you might expect.

But there aren't any holidays overseas in September this year, so people are not taking the time off. And the (few) worthwhile places within the UK are sold out. I'm looking at our corporate holiday planner at the moment, just about everybody is in, in fact the work-from-homers are all looking forward to going back then.

 

[Bald Rick]

But there aren't any holidays overseas in September this year, so people are not taking the time off.

There’s plenty! Albeit not as many people will be doing so as usual.

And the (few) worthwhile places within the UK are sold out

Which strongly suggests that lots of people are taking holidays in September.

 

[peters]

But there aren't any holidays overseas in September this year,

There’s plenty!

There's some overseas (subject to restrictions either at home or abroad not being tightened before then) but even for places which are currently open for tourism airlines have cancelled flights for September e.g. Easyjet and Jet2 have reduced the number of flights operating to Greece this autumn.

Which strongly suggests that lots of people are taking holidays in September.

People going on UK holidays may be using the train to get there. I was planning to travel down to Cambridge in July by train but due to the hotel I had booked deciding they were not reopening due to additional COVID-19 restrictions, it meant I didn't get to go, probably just as well considering train operators did not reinstate the full service in July.

Strangely the Leeds festival usually results in services between Cheshire and Manchester being rammed, probably because there's plenty of teenagers and young adults in Cheshire who can afford to go.

In the afternoon, the 1509 from Altrincham / 1512 from Hale is too early for the grammar schools' finishing times. With a 2-hour gap to the next service, I fear that the 1641 from Piccadilly (also popular with Manchester commuters) will be rammed between Hale and Knutsford, especially if two of the four carriages are only 16m long (Class 142 Pacer).

Agreed and with the extras to and from Stockport not operating I think it will mean some people who usually travel on the following Stockport to Chester service will instead travel to work earlier and also travel home from work earlier.

From the Northern website

"To help people during lockdown, train operators agreed with government to relax a number of conditions of travel. Now as the vast majority of services are running and lockdown-related refunds have been processed, the relaxations are being returned to their previous conditions.

From 7 September these conditions will come back into place"

Customer Information - Tickets and Refunds after 7 September | Northern

Important information for customers regarding tickets and refunds To help people during lockdown, train operators agreed with government to relax a number of conditions of travel. Now as the vast majority of services are running and lockdown-related refunds have been processed, the relaxations...

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Does that mean Northern's planned 14 September timetable change is one week later than what's expected?

 

[peters]

Seems last Friday Northern managed to let a train leave 3 minutes early on the Mid-Cheshire line and due to the next train not being for another 2 hours a member of staff organised a taxi for some people who just missed the train. Credit to the member of staff who arranged the taxi but whoever allowed the train to run ahead of schedule when the service is so infrequent needs a good telling off.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Seems last Friday Northern managed to let a train leave 3 minutes early on the Mid-Cheshire line and due to the next train not being for another 2 hours a member of staff organised a taxi for some people who just missed the train. Credit to the member of staff who arranged the taxi but whoever allowed the train to run ahead of schedule when the service is so infrequent needs a good telling off.

Shouldn't have left early even if the service were hourly. If anything it should leave 1 minute late.

 

[30907]

Seems last Friday Northern managed to let a train leave 3 minutes early on the Mid-Cheshire line and due to the next train not being for another 2 hours a member of staff organised a taxi for some people who just missed the train. Credit to the member of staff who arranged the taxi but whoever allowed the train to run ahead of schedule when the service is so infrequent needs a good telling off.

It sometimes happens, as do trains missing out stops. Usually down to human error, not necessarily the train crew's.

To pick up 4mins between Altrincham and Northwich is impressive (RTT suggests 1041 ex Piccadilly) which suggests a class 195 might be involved - I suppose that could be considered Northern's fault?

 

[peters]

To pick up 4mins between Altrincham and Northwich is impressive (RTT suggests 1041 ex Piccadilly) which suggests a class 195 might be involved - I suppose that could be considered Northern's fault?

The times are very generous. A few years ago trains left Stockport at exactly half past the hour and arrived at Knutsford on the hour, now they've got 32 minutes despite removing the Pacers that were slow to move off, as well as being slow to load and unload at stations. I've been on Sprinter(?) trains bound for Manchester that have had to sit outside Stockport station for over 5 minutes due to arriving early and the platform not yet being available.

If the new trains are 100mph then I would guess the place they'd arrive early is at Stockport, given they share the line with 125mph Intercity trains on that section, while from Stockport to Chester the other trains on the line are freight which seem to move slower than Northern's trains.

 

[markymark2000]

The times are very generous. A few years ago trains left Stockport at exactly half past the hour and arrived at Knutsford on the hour, now they've got 32 minutes despite removing the Pacers that were slow to move off, as well as being slow to load and unload at stations. I've been on Sprinter(?) trains bound for Manchester that have had to sit outside Stockport station for over 5 minutes due to arriving early and the platform not yet being available.

If the new trains are 100mph then I would guess the place they'd arrive early is at Stockport, given they share the line with 125mph Intercity trains on that section, while from Stockport to Chester the other trains on the line are freight which seem to move slower than Northern's trains.

Is a 195 was used, they are meant to have really good acceleration and braking which would be part of the reason for the journey time decrease.

 

[peters]

Is a 195 was used, they are meant to have really good acceleration and braking which would be part of the reason for the journey time decrease.

I don't think picking up 4 minutes means a different type of train was used, probably just a conductor who couldn't be bothered to check either their watch or the timetable. As explained 2 minutes before Knutsford just means running to the old less padded out times, 4 minutes at Northwich is a combination of forgetting about the padding and that the train is timetabled to sit at Northwich for a minute or two.

Northern had no shortage of staff to check tickets this morning, a shame they always have ample ticket inspectors and insufficient drivers

https://twitter.com/BTPCheshire/status/1301795628775870464

 

[peters]

In the afternoon, the 1509 from Altrincham / 1512 from Hale is too early for the grammar schools' finishing times. With a 2-hour gap to the next service, I fear that the 1641 from Piccadilly (also popular with Manchester commuters) will be rammed between Hale and Knutsford, especially if two of the four carriages are only 16m long (Class 142 Pacer).

From next Monday the 14:41 will remain at Navigation Road for 7 minutes, the intention being that will make the train late enough for the Altrincham & Hale school pupils to make it. Although, that service has been reduced to 2 carriages instead of 4 this week, along with the 07:09 Manchester to Chester so it might mean that service is another sardine express.

 

[Jamesrob637]

From next Monday the 14:41 will remain at Navigation Road for 7 minutes, the intention being that will make the train late enough for the Altrincham & Hale school pupils to make it. Although, that service has been reduced to 2 carriages instead of 4 this week, along with the 07:09 Manchester to Chester so it might mean that service is another sardine express.

14:41 is 2-car but I have sent a quite explicit request to Northern to make it be booked 4-car