Services to be reinstated too late for schools and colleges returning.

[peters]

Northern are apparently their next uplift in timetabled services to start from w/c 13th September. On the other hand schools and colleges during the first week of September. In Cheshire it seems to be a common trend for the schools to be doing a phased reopening during the first week of Sep and working towards all pupils being in school by Friday 4th Sep.

One particular area of concern are morning peak Manchester to Chester via Altrincham services. This line is a bit unusual as there are significant flows in both directions in the morning peak, unlike a number of other lines in and out of Manchester where a lot of people travel towards Manchester in the morning peak and the trains in the opposite direction have very few passengers.

The current arrangement is:
06:13 Manchester to Chester - withdrawn
07:09 Manchester to Chester - booked to operate with 4 carriages
07:41 Manchester to Chester - withdrawn
08:18 Stockport to Chester - withdrawn

On a normal school day the 07:09 carries a significant number of school pupils from Mobberley, Knutsford, Plumley, Lostock Gralam & Northwich stations to Greenbank station for St Nicholas High School. Usually it is a rammed 2 carriage service so 4 carriages sounds like an improvement. However, the 07:41 carries a significant number of school pupils from Navigation Rd, Altrincham, Hale, Ashley & Mobberley to Knutsford station for Knutsford Academy so if those pupils have to travel on the earlier train the overlap in catchment areas might cause an issue, not to mention the Chester bound platform at Knutsford is not well designed for a large number of people using it simultaneously even without social distancing. Then we have to remember the trains are not exclusively for school pupils and for workers there's only one service instead of four providing capacity of 4 carriages instead of 8. Consequently this is causing major concern with parents. The 07:41 is also currently not showing on the National Rail system for 14th September. I don't suppose this is the only line where parents are concerned.

To make matters worse I know the Headteacher of St Nicholas High School wrote to Northern a few weeks ago giving details about the school's planned return but it seems Northern ignored it in the first instance, as they were only bothered about trains for 'key workers' at the time they received his correspondence.

The part of Cheshire East which the line serves is not well served by other public transport; Ashley and Plumley have no other public transport, Knutsford has an hourly 'round the houses' bus to Altrincham via Wilmslow and infrequent services on other routes that exist, while the bus which serves Mobberley stops on a road almost 2 miles from the station.

I realise Northern are short of drivers and they can't recruit Sooty to wave his magic wand to make more drivers appear but they need to do something more and I doubt very much that Northern won't have a single additional driver available w/c 6th Sep but will have a whole load w/c 13th Sep. To me it sounds like they are prioritising making things easy for their planners ahead of prioritising safety on services and at stations.

One of the local papers has featured this story: https://www.knutsfordguardian.co.uk...urly-trains-serving-knutsford-schoolchildren/

 

[jonnyfan]

From what I understand, the 0818 Stockport to Chester will be re-introduced (I hope with 4 carriages) and will start before 13th September to cater for school traffic. I'm unsure if there will be other services re-introduced, we'll have to wait until nearer the time to find out

 

[peters]

From what I understand, the 0818 Stockport to Chester will be re-introduced (I hope with 4 carriages) and will start before 13th September to cater for school traffic. I'm unsure if there will be other services re-introduced, we'll have to wait until nearer the time to find out

I don't know if there's any changes to the school start and finish time at Knutsford Academy for the next academic year. For the 19/20 academic year their pupils had to get train arriving in to Knutsford at around 08:25 for a 08:45 start, rather than the 08:51 arrival (the 08:18 Stockport to Chester.) The earlier start allowed pupils to finish in time for the 15:44 train in the afternoon, as well as the 15:35 bus towards Wilmslow.

Similarly St Nicholas pupils need to get the train which gets in to Greenbank at 08:10, so that they finish in time to get the train departing Greenbank at 15:27. I think those starting & finishing times were partly to avoid high school pupils travelling on the same train as Mid-Cheshire college students but as the Hartford campus has closed it probably wouldn't be as much of an issue if they start and finish later now.

The schools in the area have been good at adapting their start and finish times to coordinate with public transport so I would hope Northern plan to operate the services the school pupils rely on unless they have liaised with the relevant schools and reached an acceptable compromise first.

Northern are well aware how well used those services are in school term, otherwise they wouldn't put armies of 6-8 ticket inspectors on platforms at both Knutsford and Greenbank.

 

[northernchris]

I realise Northern are short of drivers and they can't recruit Sooty to wave his magic wand to make more drivers appear but they need to do something more and I doubt very much that Northern won't have a single additional driver available w/c 6th Sep but will have a whole load w/c 13th Sep.

This raises a good point - with the schools (and likely commuters) beginning to return from early September the service enhancements should ideally have coincided with this. Northern have been running some additional peak services on the day lately though, although not sure how it's decided which line benefits

 

[Bald Rick]

This raises a good point - with the schools (and likely commuters) beginning to return from early September the service enhancements should ideally have coincided with this. Northern have been running some additional peak services on the day lately though, although not sure how it's decided which line benefits

If you look at passenger numbers, they don’t actually build up until a couple of weeks after schools return, principally that many people without school age children (of which there are a lot more than people with school age children) take early September off to go on holiday when it is cheaper and there’s still a chance of good weather. Indeed the first week with the schools back is actually quieter than the first 2-3 week’s of the school summer holidays. Clearly there will be localised demand for schools traffic, but it is very local.

 

[Greybeard33]

I don't know if there's any changes to the school start and finish time at Knutsford Academy for the next academic year. For the 19/20 academic year their pupils had to get train arriving in to Knutsford at around 08:25 for a 08:45 start, rather than the 08:51 arrival (the 08:18 Stockport to Chester.) The earlier start allowed pupils to finish in time for the 15:44 train in the afternoon, as well as the 15:35 bus towards Wilmslow.

Similarly St Nicholas pupils need to get the train which gets in to Greenbank at 08:10, so that they finish in time to get the train departing Greenbank at 15:27. I think those starting & finishing times were partly to avoid high school pupils travelling on the same train as Mid-Cheshire college students but as the Hartford campus has closed it probably wouldn't be as much of an issue if they start and finish later now.

The schools in the area have been good at adapting their start and finish times to coordinate with public transport so I would hope Northern plan to operate the services the school pupils rely on unless they have liaised with the relevant schools and reached an acceptable compromise first.

Northern are well aware how well used those services are in school term, otherwise they wouldn't put armies of 6-8 ticket inspectors on platforms at both Knutsford and Greenbank.

From RTT, Northern has now loaded a further amendment to the M-F Mid Cheshire line timetable for the period Monday 14 September to Friday 11 December. There are more services than in the previous version, although there are still some 2-hour gaps. The 0818 Stockport to Chester will now start from Piccadilly at 0808. But Knutsford Academy pupils will still have no westbound arrival between 0751 (0709 from Piccadilly) and 0850. The earlier train will arrive at Greenbank at 0810.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Knutsford all day on 14/09/2020

Train information at Knutsford all day on 14/09/2020. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The current 2-hourly timetable (which does include the 0709 Piccadilly to Chester) is still set to continue until Friday 11 September, more than a week after the (tentatively planned) start of the school term.

There are also large pupil flows in the opposite direction, from Cheshire to Hale and Altrincham for the Altrincham grammar schools. They will have to use the 0651 Chester to Piccadilly service (0735 from Knutsford), in competition with commuters to Manchester.

 

[infobleep]

If you look at passenger numbers, they don’t actually build up until a couple of weeks after schools return, principally that many people without school age children (of which there are a lot more than people with school age children) take early September off to go on holiday when it is cheaper and there’s still a chance of good weather. Indeed the first week with the schools back is actually quieter than the first 2-3 week’s of the school summer holidays. Clearly there will be localised demand for schools traffic, but it is very local.

The demand may be very local but it's the very local they perhaps could do with tackling.

 

[peters]

From RTT, Northern has now loaded a further amendment to the M-F Mid Cheshire line timetable for the period Monday 14 September to Friday 11 December. There are more services than in the previous version, although there are still some 2-hour gaps. The 0818 Stockport to Chester will now start from Piccadilly at 0808. But Knutsford Academy pupils will still have no westbound arrival between 0751 (0709 from Piccadilly) and 0850. The earlier train will arrive at Greenbank at 0810.

Which is what's causing concern. Mobberley may be seen as a quiet station but there are a lot of school pupils using it and if the train which the St Nicholas pupils catch is already rammed solid with Knutsford Academy pupils and commuters, what are Northern going to do if:
a) The train is rammed even with 4 carriages, will they urgently try to reinstate the 07:41 Manchester to Chester?
b) Pupils can't get on the train, will Northern abandon them in Mobberley for 90 minutes until 14th September and for 60 minutes after that?

The current 2-hourly timetable (which does include the 0709 Piccadilly to Chester) is still set to continue until Friday 11 September, more than a week after the (tentatively planned) start of the school term.

As things stand schools are reopening during the first week of September so transport operators should be planning for that scenario.

 

[peters]

If you look at passenger numbers, they don’t actually build up until a couple of weeks after schools return, principally that many people without school age children (of which there are a lot more than people with school age children) take early September off to go on holiday when it is cheaper and there’s still a chance of good weather. Indeed the first week with the schools back is actually quieter than the first 2-3 week’s of the school summer holidays. Clearly there will be localised demand for schools traffic, but it is very local.

Really? If I submitted a request to take my children out of school for holiday in September the headteacher to treat it as a joke, he might make an exception for an odd day for a family wedding or a funeral but if it's to go on a holiday to the Lake District or Tenerife when it's cheaper then absolutely no chance. My children's school once made it categorically clear that they will not even authorise one day of leave for children to attend the annual county show, the headteacher added that if teachers believe there is relevant educational value from attending the show that they may consider organising a school trip to it.

I do find off-peak services are usually much busier in school holidays but if Northern think there's large number of parents and children planning to be away until 14th September, they're in for a major shock.

 

[Bald Rick]

Really? If I submitted a request to take my children out of school for holiday in September the headteacher to treat it as a joke, he might make an exception for an odd day for a family wedding or a funeral but if it's to go on a holiday to the Lake District or Tenerife when it's cheaper then absolutely no chance. My children's school once made it categorically clear that they will not even authorise one day of leave for children to attend the annual county show, the headteacher added that if teachers believe there is relevant educational value from attending the show that they may consider organising a school trip to it.

I do find off-peak services are usually much busier in school holidays but if Northern think there's large number of parents and children planning to be away until 14th September, they're in for a major shock.

I think you misunderstood me. I said that many people *without* children of school age will go on holiday in early September when it is cheaper. And there’s are more adults (a lot more) without school age children in this country than there are *with* school age children.

And that’s why the first two weeks of September are quieter than than you might expect.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The demand may be very local but it's the very local they perhaps could do with tackling.

Surley very local demand for a very particular and short amount of time is something that would be much better provided for using double deck buses?
I don't know what station the school pupils are travelling to, but the trains on that line travel for an hour and a half end to end, if the school kids are only traveling one or two stops then that would only be 10 or 15 minutes; it would be extremely wasteful of any Train Operating Company to add carriages on any service where it isn't needed for 80% of the journey, just to meet the demand between two stations which make up the remaining 20% of the journey time.

*I'm basing this on the fact that you've said they're making "very local" journeys which I would take to mean they're only travelling one or two stations.

 

[peters]

I think you misunderstood me. I said that many people *without* children of school age will go on holiday in early September when it is cheaper. And there’s are more adults (a lot more) without school age children in this country than there are *with* school age children.

And that’s why the first two weeks of September are quieter than than you might expect.

I did misread but I still don't agree. Other than around Christmas I've never seen work holiday calendars showing lots of people taking leave in September or experienced peak time train services being quiet in September. For those wanting a UK break while it's warm July is a better bet and for those wanting to travel to southern Europe anytime between May and October gives warm weather, in fact early September in the Canaries is probably too hot for most unless your idea of a holiday is lying around doing nothing!

 

[peters]

Surley very local demand for a very particular and short amount of time is something that would be much better provided for using double deck buses?
I don't know what station the school pupils are travelling to, but the trains on that line travel for an hour and a half end to end, if the school kids are only traveling one or two stops then that would only be 10 or 15 minutes; it would be extremely wasteful of any Train Operating Company to add carriages on any service where it isn't needed for 80% of the journey, just to meet the demand between two stations which make up the remaining 20% of the journey time.

*I'm basing this on the fact that you've said they're making "very local" journeys which I would take to mean they're only travelling one or two stations.

See my original post. St Nicholas is near Greenbank station and the catchment area extends to Mobberley, while Knutsford Academy is obviously in Knutsford and most of the borough of Trafford is included within its catchment, including towns almost in Salford but for the pupils in places like Urmston a bus is provided. We should also not forget that some pupils travel from outside their school's catchment area due to not getting a place at their local school or the parents wanting their children to go to a better school. Consequently I am aware of pupils attending St Nicholas school from Sale, Tarvin and Appleton, which are closer to alternative schools.

There are also usually hundreds of people travelling from the Manchester & Trafford area to Knutsford due to Barclays employing thousands of people at Radbrooke Hall, meaning the seats many of the St Nicholas pupils occupy on the 07:09 Manchester to Chester have already been occupied before they get on the train. Then there's people from the Northwich area commuting to Chester as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if that little 2 carriage train carries well over 500 people between leaving Manchester and arriving at Chester. The Radbrooke Hall workers start arriving on the 07:51 at Knutsford and continue to arrive until the 09:25 and depart on the 16:44, 17:44 and 18:44 trains from Knutsford to Manchester - all of them can be rammed on a normal day. There are more people using the Manchester to Greenbank section than the Greenbank to Chester - Manchester to Greenbank was supposed to get all day half-hourly services but that hasn't happened.

When free school bus travel was withdrawn in Cheshire Northern started offering scholar's season tickets which undercut what bus operators were charging, consequently the bus services failed as parents made their children walk a bit further to save money and the problem which exists is partly of Northern's own making.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I have been told by a friend who works at Radbroke Hall, that the vast majority of the people who work there will not be back in the office until 2021, so that should reduce demand on services to Knutsford

 

[Bald Rick]

I did misread but I still don't agree. Other than around Christmas I've never seen work holiday calendars showing lots of people taking leave in September or experienced peak time train services being quiet in September. For those wanting a UK break while it's warm July is a better bet and for those wanting to travel to southern Europe anytime between May and October gives warm weather, in fact early September in the Canaries is probably too hot for most unless your idea of a holiday is lying around doing nothing!

I’m not going by leave calendars, I’m going by actual daily passenger numbers on the Network (which I appreciate aren’t publicly available). But I can assure you that passenger numbers in the first week of September are lower than in the first week of August, and in the second week of September are the same as the last two weeks in July. Only by the third week of September are thy back up to ‘normal’ for term time.

Clearly there will be regional and local variations.

 

[infobleep]

Surley very local demand for a very particular and short amount of time is something that would be much better provided for using double deck buses?
I don't know what station the school pupils are travelling to, but the trains on that line travel for an hour and a half end to end, if the school kids are only traveling one or two stops then that would only be 10 or 15 minutes; it would be extremely wasteful of any Train Operating Company to add carriages on any service where it isn't needed for 80% of the journey, just to meet the demand between two stations which make up the remaining 20% of the journey time.

*I'm basing this on the fact that you've said they're making "very local" journeys which I would take to mean they're only travelling one or two stations.

I wondered about buses but thought maybe they wouldn't be large enough.

Of course if buses work for the beginning of September, why not continue with buses from 14 September. Surely it is quieter then as well or does it tend to get busier on and from the 14th?

 

[infobleep]

I’m not going by leave calendars, I’m going by actual daily passenger numbers on the Network (which I appreciate aren’t publicly available. But I can assure you thapassenger numbers in the first week of September are lower than in the first week of August, and in the second week of September are the same as the last two weeks in July. Only by the third week of September are thy back up Tom ‘normal’ for term time.

Clearly there will be regional and local variations.

Interesting. That answers my point.

 

[peters]

I have been told by a friend who works at Radbroke Hall, that the vast majority of the people who work there will not be back in the office until 2021, so that should reduce demand on services to Knutsford

The Barclays boss told Bloomberg, around a week ago, that 3/4 of his staff are working from home and it's important to phase them back in to workplaces 'by Christmas.'

 

[peters]

I’m not going by leave calendars, I’m going by actual daily passenger numbers on the Network (which I appreciate aren’t publicly available. But I can assure you thapassenger numbers in the first week of September are lower than in the first week of August, and in the second week of September are the same as the last two weeks in July. Only by the third week of September are thy back up Tom ‘normal’ for term time.

Clearly there will be regional and local variations.

So how have you concluded lower daily passenger numbers on the network as a whole means more people are taking annual leave? Like I've said in my part of Northern network I've seen no evidence of lots of people booking annual leave in early September and no evidence of peak time services being quieter for the first two weeks of September. If Northern have got hold of the figures you are referring to I would suggest they've drawn the same conclusion as you have but it's incorrect as there's other possible reasons for passenger numbers being lower. Maybe more retired people are on holiday abroad meaning they aren't there to use off-peak trains? Maybe stay at home parents are staying at home and resting for a couple of weeks post-summer holidays rather than going around doing things? Maybe there's few people visiting Britain from abroad at the start of September? There's all sorts of reasons.

 

[peters]

I wondered about buses but thought maybe they wouldn't be large enough.

Of course if buses work for the beginning of September, why not continue with buses from 14 September. Surely it is quieter then as well or does it tend to get busier on and from the 14th?

I understand one of the problems when designated school buses did run is operators frequently bought old double deckers which could just about go and used them exclusively on school contracts. The safety inspectors were aware of the practice and frequently popped up at schools to do inspections and it was rare for them not to find at least one vehicle which wasn't fit to be on the road.

 

[markymark2000]

I should point out that with the PSVAR rules and duplicates planned on existing school routes to enable social distancing, you will be hard pressed to find any bus operator who has spare PSVAR buses and drivers to run the extra school buses.

Really, this onus is on Northern who need to sort themselves out as it is unacceptable to be providing such a reduced service meaning kids can't get to school. Government says get kids back to school yet govt owned and ran train operator doesn't set up the transport to allow kids to go back to school. Logic = non existent. Blinking stupid. Arriva Northern got a lot of stick but they were never this bad at running trains.

 

[northernchris]

I’m not going by leave calendars, I’m going by actual daily passenger numbers on the Network (which I appreciate aren’t publicly available). But I can assure you that passenger numbers in the first week of September are lower than in the first week of August, and in the second week of September are the same as the last two weeks in July. Only by the third week of September are thy back up to ‘normal’ for term time.

Clearly there will be regional and local variations.

I must admit I'm surprised by this but completely get why - I always book 2 weeks annual leave in September

Really, this onus is on Northern who need to sort themselves out as it is unacceptable to be providing such a reduced service meaning kids can't get to school. Government says get kids back to school yet govt owned and ran train operator doesn't set up the transport to allow kids to go back to school. Logic = non existent. Blinking stupid. Arriva Northern got a lot of stick but they were never this bad at running trains.

I hope being government owned doesn't give Northern free reign to do as they please and they are treated any more favourably than Arriva would have been in the same circumstances. I fear we're in for a worse time with OLR in charge if their first few months are anything to go by

 

[peters]

From RTT, Northern has now loaded a further amendment to the M-F Mid Cheshire line timetable for the period Monday 14 September to Friday 11 December. There are more services than in the previous version, although there are still some 2-hour gaps. The 0818 Stockport to Chester will now start from Piccadilly at 0808. But Knutsford Academy pupils will still have no westbound arrival between 0751 (0709 from Piccadilly) and 0850. The earlier train will arrive at Greenbank at 0810.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Knutsford all day on 14/09/2020

Train information at Knutsford all day on 14/09/2020. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The current 2-hourly timetable (which does include the 0709 Piccadilly to Chester) is still set to continue until Friday 11 September, more than a week after the (tentatively planned) start of the school term.

It still looks like either some more services are to be loaded or some of the ones currently showing will be deleted, as the Leeds-Chester services you mentioned in another thread are still 2 hourly in one direction and hourly in the other. The Altrincham line also has some services which currently don't have return workings even if the 08:18 Stockport-Chester originating from Manchester, while there are no trains from Chester terminating at Stockport, makes it look less like a service left in by mistake. It also appears on Saturday, with 07:41 Manchester-Chester also missing on Saturday.

 

[Greybeard33]

The Altrincham line also has some services which currently don't have return workings even if the 08:18 Stockport-Chester originating from Manchester, while there are no trains from Chester terminating at Stockport, makes it look less like a service left in by mistake. It also appears on Saturday, with 07:41 Manchester-Chester also missing on Saturday.

RTT shows that the stock from all arrivals at Chester from Piccadilly will subsequently form the next departure to Piccadilly, with the exception of 2D43, the 0808 Piccadilly to Chester (arr 0936). That will shunt into a siding as 5D43 (0940 - 0953) and later return to the platform as 5H31 (1540 - 1546). It will then form 2H31, the 1602 Chester to Piccadilly. The same on Saturdays.

 

[peters]

RTT shows that the stock from all arrivals at Chester from Piccadilly will subsequently form the next departure to Piccadilly, with the exception of 2D43, the 0808 Piccadilly to Chester (arr 0936). That will shunt into a siding as 5D43 (0940 - 0953) and later return to the platform as 5H31 (1540 - 1546). It will then form 2H31, the 1602 Chester to Piccadilly. The same on Saturdays.

Where does the train for the 12:02 Chester to Manchester come from?

 

[Greybeard33]

Where does the train for the 12:02 Chester to Manchester come from?

Good point!

I would guess that 2H33, the 1202 Chester to Piccadilly, has been left in by mistake. The stock from it seems to disappear again when it gets to Piccadilly. In the normal timetable it would be the return working of 2D45, the 0941 from Piccadilly, and then form 2D49, the 1341 from Piccadilly, but both these services have been deleted.

 

[Rail Ranger]

The September issue of Today's Railways UK magazine reports that from 14th September Northern 142s will lose their diagrams to Sheffield in favour of use on the Mid Cheshire Line.

 

[peters]

The September issue of Today's Railways UK magazine reports that from 14th September Northern 142s will lose their diagrams to Sheffield in favour of use on the Mid Cheshire Line.

That means Pacers? It goes from bad to worse then. They were often the type of train Travel Safe Officers had to remove school pupils from so the doors could close, with the school pupils then having to wait an hour for the next train.

 

[30907]

That means Pacers? It goes from bad to worse then. They were often the type of train Travel Safe Officers had to remove school pupils from so the doors could close, with the school pupils then having to wait an hour for the next train.

Was that when they were coupled to a 150/156, which is the requirement now, or when a single Pacer showed up?

 

[peters]

Was that when they were coupled to a 150/156, which is the requirement now, or when a single Pacer showed up?

Single train under normal circumstances. However, even from 15th September the 07:41 Manchester to Chester and 14:02 Chester to Manchester won't be running meaning the 07:09 Manchester to Chester and 15:02 Chester to Manchester, that the schoolchildren will use, will be busier than they would otherwise be.