Services to Northampton

[A S Leib]

I’d even suggest that these days it’s more important than a Birmingham Pendo call, but that is well established. I’d say the Crewe/Wilmslow tph, to give a fast Watford-Crewe link too. Watford-Stoke probably negligible.

Watford – Stoke's 1609 journeys per year; very slightly fewer than Preston, and less than a third of Watford – Liverpool Lime Street (5431), so via Crewe makes more sense.

 

[The Planner]

I understand the historical reasons why. But next major timetable change, it could be looked at.

That won't be until HS2 opens.

 

[Mgameing123]

That won't be until HS2 opens.

Not even. HS2 won't provide a good relief service until the Golborne Link opens.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I understand the historical reasons why. But next major timetable change, it could be looked at.

I think Watford demand to Manchester would be organically (ie if services similarly) much higher than from MKC. It was always a big north / north of London railhead. Competitor also being the M1, vs cannibalizing Euston double-backs or MKC connections. This outer mob is a car mob, so arguably it’s even more important for modal shift than inner London types. And flying is dead beyond BA connections.

I’d even suggest that these days it’s more important than a Birmingham Pendo call, but that is well established. I’d say the Crewe/Wilmslow tph, to give a fast Watford-Crewe link too. Watford-Stoke probably negligible.

Pre the 2004 changes , Watford had a 2 hourly Manchester service , with the alternate hour being Liverpool.

(I think) - worth several million quid , and valuable for railheading for the out of London communities. All effectively thrown away and one I did not agree with - leaving Watford and the M25 area with a very token service to the NW - and just a West Midlands direct fast is one that should be reappraised - especially Manchester via Crewe / Wilmslow etc.

You mean very similar to the one that does operate? (Add Leighton Buzzard, and remove Watford from 1 of the 2).

No ! - LB used to be known as the "railway village" due to it being the dormitory of numerous high ranking "railway officers" - and presumably got more attention because of this. At the risk of being shot down in flames - most have now probably retired and the remaining ones have long planned for using the hourly "fast"

Watford , for it's high traffic levels , remains unchanged from 1996 if not before - and requires some improvement on the somewhat congested and basic passenger facilties. (the awful pedestrian route to the car park in particular , let alone the facilities for the taxi drivers)

 

[Bletchleyite]

No ! - LB used to be known as the "railway village" due to it being the dormitory of numerous high ranking "railway officers" - and presumably got more attention because of this. At the risk of being shot down in flames - most have now probably retired and the remaining ones have long planned for using the hourly "fast"

2tph now (and has been for ages). My point was the service that poster wants already exists.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

2tph now (and has been for ages). My point was the service that poster wants already exists.

Potential traffic off peak cannot be anything like the actualities at Watford which has massive employment , retail and other service opportunities. The point I was making that robbing WFJ of a fast service in favour of LB would be commercial madness. If a call can be fitted in - then fine.

How the metropolis of Cheddington complained when they got off peak calls at 1 tph ! - the actuality of 1 passenger an hour on average proved that........

 

[The Planner]

Not even. HS2 won't provide a good relief service until the Golborne Link opens.

No, it will be rewritten if trains are using Handsacre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How the metropolis of Cheddington complained when they got off peak calls at 1 tph ! - the actuality of 1 passenger an hour on average proved that........

While Cheddington is crying out for an ecotown to be built around it (bet the locals will love that!), I suspect it now getting 2 is just because otherwise the timetable is unnecessarily lop sided - there isn't another one nearby you would logically drop to 1 to balance it and keep it perfect half hourly at other stations.

 

[Kite159]

The only thing I would change with the current timetable is retiming the Milton Keynes - London stoppers so they follow the Birmingham - London LNR services. So for any passengers travelling from say Northampton to (say) Hemel Hempstead, they don't have a 25-minute fester at Milton Keynes for the next stopper. But that will probably screw up the timetable further south when the Tring semi-fasts come into place along with freight.

Also having Watford calls on both LNR services, even if to pick up heading towards Birmingham & set down only to avoid the trains getting overcrowded with local passengers (whom can use the Milton Keynes/Tring services).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only thing I would change with the current timetable is retiming the Milton Keynes - London stoppers so they follow the Birmingham - London LNR services. So for any passengers travelling from say Northampton to (say) Hemel Hempstead, they don't have a 25-minute fester at Milton Keynes for the next stopper. But that will probably screw up the timetable further south when the Tring semi-fasts come into place along with freight.

Also having Watford calls on both LNR services, even if to pick up heading towards Birmingham & set down only to avoid the trains getting overcrowded with local passengers (whom can use the Milton Keynes/Tring services).

I suspect neither of these can be pathed, as the timetable is well enough designed that I'm certain they would have been considered. Originally the Marston Vale connection was even Swiss style - MV arrives, fast and slow calls in each direction for near-perfect connections, MV departs, though I believe it's since been tweaked to prioritise local users who didn't fit with the Takt.

 

[Mgameing123]

Depends on the wait time - if the wait time at MK is only ~5 minutes, but longer at Bletchley then no. Also it would probably be cross / same platform at Milton Keynes Central (assuming the Oxfords use the bay platform and the Northampton has arrived on the slows) whereas the "extra" services at Bletchley which will be to / from Bedford will be on the high level platforms which are further away.

I'd always choose MK to make such a change over Bletchley as it's nicer, more convenient and as the Oxford will start there, will almost guarantee getting a seat as well.

If the connection time is 5 minutes I’m not doing that. That’s too tight.

While Cheddington is crying out for an ecotown to be built around it (bet the locals will love that!), I suspect it now getting 2 is just because otherwise the timetable is unnecessarily lop sided - there isn't another one nearby you would logically drop to 1 to balance it and keep it perfect half hourly at other stations.

To be honest Labour should build a new town around Cheddington and Tring stations using inspiration from King Charles Poundbury.

 

[Merle Haggard]

If the connection time is 5 minutes I’m not doing that. That’s too tight.


To be honest Labour should build a new town around Cheddington and Tring stations using inspiration from King Charles Poundbury.

This area has in the past not shown a great enthusiasm for development - see Cublington (proposed London 3rd airport) and of course HS2, so good luck with that one.

 

[A0]

If the connection time is 5 minutes I’m not doing that. That’s too tight.
.

5 mins is ATOCs minimum for Milton Keynes Central and given it would usually be "same" platform (as the bay the Oxfords will probably use is flanked by the the up and down slows the Northampton's usually use) that time is ample. Probably better than Bletchley where the EWRs will be going to the high level platforms which are much further than the bay at MK Central.

 

[Mgameing123]

5 mins is ATOCs minimum for Milton Keynes Central and given it would usually be "same" platform (as the bay the Oxfords will probably use is flanked by the the up and down slows the Northampton's usually use) that time is ample. Probably better than Bletchley where the EWRs will be going to the high level platforms which are much further than the bay at MK Central.

I couldn’t care less about minimum recommended connection times. I care about having buffer time for delays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

5 mins is ATOCs minimum for Milton Keynes Central and given it would usually be "same" platform (as the bay the Oxfords will probably use is flanked by the the up and down slows the Northampton's usually use) that time is ample.

It's not. P1 is the up slow, but P2 is a bay (with EWR short bay 2A cut into it), Northampton services go from P3 which is over the bridge.

 

[zwk500]

It's not. P1 is the up slow, but P2 is a bay (with EWR short bay 2A cut into it), Northampton services go from P3 which is over the bridge.

Technical correction but p2 isn't a bay at MKC unless there's been a rather dramatic alterations to the track layout in the last 2 years that I missed, it's a reversible loop. It happens to be used mainly for terminating service but I've certainly caught northbound slows from platform 2.
(Pedant over).

 

[A0]

It's not. P1 is the up slow, but P2 is a bay (with EWR short bay 2A cut into it), Northampton services go from P3 which is over the bridge.

Technical correction but p2 isn't a bay at MKC unless there's been a rather dramatic alterations to the track layout in the last 2 years that I missed, it's a reversible loop. It happens to be used mainly for terminating service but I've certainly caught northbound slows from platform 2.
(Pedant over).

Ok - so heading from Northampton to Oxford would be "same" platform interchange at Milton Keynes and *may* be in reverse depending on how P2 is being used.

I couldn’t care less about minimum recommended connection times. I care about having buffer time for delays.

A somewhat dogmatic attitude, however you can have more than 5 mins by simply waiting for the next train if the first is a 5 minute connection. Means you'd be sitting around for a bit, but that's your choice.

 

[zwk500]

Ok - so heading from Northampton to Oxford would be "same" platform interchange at Milton Keynes and *may* be in reverse depending on how P2 is being used.

Yes - In normal running the Northbound change would be up and over the footbridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ok - so heading from Northampton to Oxford would be "same" platform interchange at Milton Keynes and *may* be in reverse depending on how P2 is being used.

P2 is in effect a south facing bay (even though it doesn't look like one). It is (according to the maps on OpenTrainTimes) possible to reach the down slow from it, but in reality this never happens, it's just used to terminate and lay over the 2tph stopping service to Euston. I have never seen nor heard of a Northampton service operating from there even in disruption/engineering work.

However you're right that southbound it would be a same island connection unless (very unusual) the service from Northampton used P4 or P5. This only tends to happen during disruption or engineering works, and I suspect in such cases as 2A wouldn't be accessible EWR would have to spin at Bletchley anyway, unless P5 could be used to turn it.

 

[Mgameing123]

Ok - so heading from Northampton to Oxford would be "same" platform interchange at Milton Keynes and *may* be in reverse depending on how P2 is being used.



A somewhat dogmatic attitude, however you can have more than 5 mins by simply waiting for the next train if the first is a 5 minute connection. Means you'd be sitting around for a bit, but that's your choice.

That’s why it’s better with being able to change at Bletchley. It gives me a safe connection option with frequent trains.

 

[Pumbaa]

The only thing I would change with the current timetable is retiming the Milton Keynes - London stoppers so they follow the Birmingham - London LNR services. So for any passengers travelling from say Northampton to (say) Hemel Hempstead, they don't have a 25-minute fester at Milton Keynes for the next stopper. But that will probably screw up the timetable further south when the Tring semi-fasts come into place along with freight.

It could be done and was considered. However the main connections for overall demand maximisation to prioritise were the Manchester, Birmingham connectivity train and the TV. The first two are catered for in the current structure, the TV Up works and the Down will fixed with 730/2 intro.

The performance was also expected to be better in this iteration. And Northants - Hemel/Berko can also be done via Watford. All not ideal, but trade offs are always necessary and unfortunately this was a no brainer.

Also having Watford calls on both LNR services, even if to pick up heading towards Birmingham & set down only to avoid the trains getting overcrowded with local passengers (whom can use the Milton Keynes/Tring services).

Not possible unfortunately, and probably not desirable either. The cheapo LNR market could be nudged via a connection at Northants (as happens now in peak hours) and the direct Brum - Watford market is already satisfied with the hourly connectivity train.

 

[zwk500]

P2 is in effect a south facing bay (even though it doesn't look like one). It is (according to the maps on OpenTrainTimes) possible to reach the down slow from it, but in reality this never happens, it's just used to terminate and lay over the 2tph stopping service to Euston. I have never seen nor heard of a Northampton service operating from there even in disruption/engineering work.

I must have been imagining the multiple times that's happened to me then. Certainly rare, but happened on more than one ocassion. Didn't need that big a disruption to get an Up Fast Northampton needing to cross from Up Slow to Up Fast through P3, so the approaching down semi-fast would wait (or already be late enough) for the terminator to have departed, it was only a couple of minutes, and then could be given the road into 2 as the overlap at the north end is non-conflicting. The slower route into 2 didn't matter as it would have already been signal checked down, and the slightly slower departure wasn't really noticeable on a 350 stopping only a couple of miles up the line. This was back a few years though (but post-Covid), so may be even rarer now.

In engineering works the block tends to be either all fast lines or all slow lines through MKC and the timetable (was) thinned out so the reversible platform isn't really needed. I've also booked a charter to use P2 as a down loop to let a northbound service passenger overtake but I accept that's very much the RailUK Forums edge case!

However the point for EWR is that it would be almost certainly never booked for the same platform interchange northbound.

 

[al green]

P2 is in effect a south facing bay (even though it doesn't look like one). It is (according to the maps on OpenTrainTimes) possible to reach the down slow from it, but in reality this never happens, it's just used to terminate and lay over the 2tph stopping service to Euston. I have never seen nor heard of a Northampton service operating from there even in disruption/engineering work.

It does occasionally happen. I was on a down LNR scheduled to use P3. The lift on P3/4 was broken and there was a pax in a wheelchair on board wanting to alight. so train was put in to P2, with working lift. Crossed back to down slow at north end of platforms.

 

[cle]

Pre the 2004 changes , Watford had a 2 hourly Manchester service , with the alternate hour being Liverpool.

(I think) - worth several million quid , and valuable for railheading for the out of London communities. All effectively thrown away and one I did not agree with - leaving Watford and the M25 area with a very token service to the NW - and just a West Midlands direct fast is one that should be reappraised - especially Manchester via Crewe / Wilmslow etc.

It did, as did MKC. They basically swapped calls every other hour on the main services, and it worked.

MKC fortunately got its extra platform to enable a better service, Watford is of course more hemmed in. And the demand was definitely there - it was known as an intercity station for miles around - as the outer railhead for the WCML - but that has probably been degraded for newer generations.

But it could be again, post HS2 potentially. Even just an hourly Manchester call (Crewe) would be a huge upgrade.

 

[DarloRich]

I have never seen nor heard of a Northampton service operating from there even in disruption/engineering work.

i have been north out of both P1 and P2 - not often but done.

 

[A0]

It did, as did MKC. They basically swapped calls every other hour on the main services, and it worked.

MKC fortunately got its extra platform to enable a better service, Watford is of course more hemmed in. And the demand was definitely there - it was known as an intercity station for miles around - as the outer railhead for the WCML - but that has probably been degraded for newer generations.

But it could be again, post HS2 potentially. Even just an hourly Manchester call (Crewe) would be a huge upgrade.

Bit in bold - post HS2 though I can't see that demand returning even if you did provide stops at Watford on Birmingham / North West services.

If you live on the M4 /M40 (Slough, Denham, Wycome) corridor there will almost certainly be direct services to Old Oak Common which will be about 45 mins to Birmingham given HS2 are quoting a 49 minute London - Birmingham journey time, compared to a 1h 20m, 3 stop on Avanti. A Watford service would have *at least* 3 stops because it won't run fast through Coventry or International and would probably stop at MK or Rugby as well).

Even on the M1 corridor, only Hemel looks more attractive with a via Watford journey. For St Albans a fast Thameslink only takes 20 mins to St Pancras add 10 mins to get to Euston - that's the same time driving St Albans to Watforf would be (looking at Google Maps right now) and the HS2 journey would be faster than Watford - Birmingham WCML.

Luton - easier to drive to MKC.

Welwyn / Hatfield - fast train to Kings Cross 29 mins (Welwyn GC) plus 10 mins to Euston compared to ~45 mins just to Watford - again a faster HS2 journey will make that the quicker route.

 

[Mgameing123]

Bit in bold - post HS2 though I can't see that demand returning even if you did provide stops at Watford on Birmingham / North West services.

If you live on the M4 /M40 (Slough, Denham, Wycome) corridor there will almost certainly be direct services to Old Oak Common which will be about 45 mins to Birmingham given HS2 are quoting a 49 minute London - Birmingham journey time, compared to a 1h 20m, 3 stop on Avanti. A Watford service would have *at least* 3 stops because it won't run fast through Coventry or International and would probably stop at MK or Rugby as well).

Even on the M1 corridor, only Hemel looks more attractive with a via Watford journey. For St Albans a fast Thameslink only takes 20 mins to St Pancras add 10 mins to get to Euston - that's the same time driving St Albans to Watforf would be (looking at Google Maps right now) and the HS2 journey would be faster than Watford - Birmingham WCML.

Luton - easier to drive to MKC.

Welwyn / Hatfield - fast train to Kings Cross 29 mins (Welwyn GC) plus 10 mins to Euston compared to ~45 mins just to Watford - again a faster HS2 journey will make that the quicker route.

for Watford to St Albans I think you can just take the Abbey Line.

 

[cle]

Bit in bold - post HS2 though I can't see that demand returning even if you did provide stops at Watford on Birmingham / North West services.

If you live on the M4 /M40 (Slough, Denham, Wycome) corridor there will almost certainly be direct services to Old Oak Common which will be about 45 mins to Birmingham given HS2 are quoting a 49 minute London - Birmingham journey time, compared to a 1h 20m, 3 stop on Avanti. A Watford service would have *at least* 3 stops because it won't run fast through Coventry or International and would probably stop at MK or Rugby as well).

Even on the M1 corridor, only Hemel looks more attractive with a via Watford journey. For St Albans a fast Thameslink only takes 20 mins to St Pancras add 10 mins to get to Euston - that's the same time driving St Albans to Watforf would be (looking at Google Maps right now) and the HS2 journey would be faster than Watford - Birmingham WCML.

Luton - easier to drive to MKC.

Welwyn / Hatfield - fast train to Kings Cross 29 mins (Welwyn GC) plus 10 mins to Euston compared to ~45 mins just to Watford - again a faster HS2 journey will make that the quicker route.

A lot of these are a faff. Vs a cab/drive to Watford J and one-seat ride. People don't like going into London and back out, especially if a station change or a tube ride. Also I bet fares will be lower.

And many users are much closer - Watford's hinterland is outer north London too... thinking Barnet, Stanmore, Harrow, Ricky obvs... but even the likes of Hendon

Slough of course will be well connected to OOC. Denham, Wycombe - yes if the Chiltern thing happens via OOC, but otherwise not. Wycombe folks might still take their direct Chiltern and chill. M40 people the real competition is the ease of driving.

 

[Bletchleyite]

M40 people the real competition is the ease of driving.

Thing is that the WCML is one of the few routes where driving all the way (if you're willing to drive to the station) struggles to match the journey time because the train averages over 100mph throughout, something you can't do legally by car (and increasingly won't get away with even illegally, with cameras everywhere). With HS2 this will be even more pronounced.

I do see the point about WFJ though, and indeed think not having an M25 Parkway on HS2 was a serious error (because Birmingham is even further away than MKC). Old Oak is too far into London for people to be willing to drive there, and it's far from clear that it'll have significant amounts of parking anyway.

 

[A0]

A lot of these are a faff. Vs a cab/drive to Watford J and one-seat ride. People don't like going into London and back out, especially if a station change or a tube ride. Also I bet fares will be lower.

And many users are much closer - Watford's hinterland is outer north London too... thinking Barnet, Stanmore, Harrow, Ricky obvs... but even the likes of Hendon

Slough of course will be well connected to OOC. Denham, Wycombe - yes if the Chiltern thing happens via OOC, but otherwise not. Wycombe folks might still take their direct Chiltern and chill. M40 people the real competition is the ease of driving.

Driving St Albans, Hatfield or Welwyn to Watford is *much* more of a faff than getting a train from the local station. The A414 is quite busy and the alternative is the M25. Watford Junction station is poorly sited and the parking isn't particularly good.

For the north London suburbs most have better connections towards central London than away from it with either tube or mainline, usually on "turn up and go" frequencies and connections onto the North London Line which will connect with Old Oak Common.

The only real bemeficiaries would be Watford and Hemel and that's not a great justification for further slowing down what will already be decelerated WCML services to the North West.

For Rickmansworth - Denham's easier and quicker to drivev to than Watford.