Services which ought to have a refreshment trolley

[Tetchytyke]

Without access to the books we have to take the TOCs' protestations about "no profit" at face value.

But given how lucrative on-board catering is for low-cost airlines- many of whose routes are shorter in time than domestic train journeys- I'm a bit surprised.

 

[xotGD]

Without access to the books we have to take the TOCs' protestations about "no profit" at face value.

But given how lucrative on-board catering is for low-cost airlines- many of whose routes are shorter in time than domestic train journeys- I'm a bit surprised.

However, airlines don't let you take hot drinks on board for Health & Safety reasons, so they have a monopoly on tea and coffee supplies. Likewise with booze, they won't let you drink your carry-ons.

 

[MG11]

Because there are no crew based anywhere in Scotland other than Edinburgh.

Can Edinburgh crew not work north to Aberdeen/Dundee/Glasgow?

 

[Parallel]

I think Bristol - Weymouth could do with catering. It has passengers doing fairly long journeys, and the majority of the line is very rural. The stock isn’t really suitable at the moment however with some services being formed of 150/1s.

The most popular trolleys on the services I have used are on the Cambrian line and the Heart of Wales Line. You might not believe me with the latter but 2/3rds of the carriage (single 153) bought something at least once! And a large group boarded at Llandovery and more or less emptied the trolley of alcohol.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think Bristol - Weymouth could do with catering. It has passengers doing fairly long journeys, and the majority of the line is very rural. The stock isn’t really suitable at the moment however with some services being formed of 150/1s.

The most popular trolleys on the services I have used are on the Cambrian line and the Heart of Wales Line. You might not believe me with the latter but 2/3rds of the carriage (single 153) bought something at least once! And a large group boarded at Llandovery and more or less emptied the trolley of alcohol.

There was catering to Weymouth in Wessex days and also on units on the Cornish Mail Line
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[221129]

Can Edinburgh crew not work north to Aberdeen/Dundee/Glasgow?

They can but what is the point? It's not done for a reason.

 

[MG11]

They can but what is the point? It's not done for a reason.

Edinburgh to Aberdeen is quite a significant distance. Even a few extra coffee/wine/crisp sales would make a difference. There are 2 XC trains a day each way to/from Aberdeen. If they sold 4 coffees at £2.30 and 3 crisps at a pound, times that by 2 and the by five and that's £53 a week, that could pay for things like their web domain costs and allow them to make an increased profit margin on ticket sales.

 

[221129]

Edinburgh to Aberdeen is quite a significant distance. Even a few extra coffee/wine/crisp sales would make a difference. There are 2 XC trains a day each way to/from Aberdeen. If they sold 4 coffees at £2.30 and 3 crisps at a pound, times that by 2 and the by five and that's £53 a week, that could pay for things like their web domain costs and allow them to make an increased profit margin on ticket sales.

But it wouldn't even come close to covering the costs of running the trolley up there in the first place!

 

[Iskra]

Edinburgh to Aberdeen is quite a significant distance. Even a few extra coffee/wine/crisp sales would make a difference. There are 2 XC trains a day each way to/from Aberdeen. If they sold 4 coffees at £2.30 and 3 crisps at a pound, times that by 2 and the by five and that's £53 a week, that could pay for things like their web domain costs and allow them to make an increased profit margin on ticket sales.

I don't know many staff members who would work for £53 a week. Even less when you consider that's turnover, not profit.

 

[paul1609]

However, airlines don't let you take hot drinks on board for Health & Safety reasons, so they have a monopoly on tea and coffee supplies. Likewise with booze, they won't let you drink your carry-ons.

I see people taking Costa onboard Easyjet flights between Glasgow and Stansted every week.

 

[MG11]

I don't know many staff members who would work for £53 a week. Even less when you consider that's turnover, not profit.

I meant as well as additional routes. Without us knowing the commercially sensitive information of XC's retail running costs, I wouldn't want to speculate on their profit margins. They wouldn't need to fund an extra service centre though, as they can use Edinburgh's.

 

[takno]

I see people taking Costa onboard Easyjet flights between Glasgow and Stansted every week.

I've only ever been stopped from taking coffee onboard a Ryanair flight, and possibly a FlyBe one (can't remember). Half a dozen other airlines were fine with it

 

[frodshamfella]

LM Liverpool to Birmingham should have a trolley service .

 

[221129]

I meant as well as additional routes. Without us knowing the commercially sensitive information of XC's retail running costs, I wouldn't want to speculate on their profit margins. They wouldn't need to fund an extra service centre though, as they can use Edinburgh's.

It would hemorrhage money. It is not commercially viable. The route in general is a major pain in the proverbial and it's a shame that they haven't been able to focus on their core network more.

 

[BigCj34]

Going form my observations, I would be surprised if the Virgin West Coast services did not turn a profit, there always seems to be a queue. Not that amounts to empirical proof of profitability of course. In other cases could a trolley be a 'loss leader' to attract passengers on longer distance services? Only a very well-prepared passenger is going to have enough food and drink on them for a 2 hour journey, and if TOC's want to promote a long distance journey as an attractive travel option to people who might not use the train it could help.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Going form my observations, I would be surprised if the Virgin West Coast services did not turn a profit, there always seems to be a queue. Not that amounts to empirical proof of profitability of course. In other cases could a trolley be a 'loss leader' to attract passengers on longer distance services? Only a very well-prepared passenger is going to have enough food and drink on them for a 2 hour journey, and if TOC's want to promote a long distance journey as an attractive travel option to people who might not use the train it could help.

In a two hour journey, you may want a snack and a couple of drinks. So grab a muffin, a can and a coffee before you hop on the train and you're sorted. You don't have to be a very well prepared passenger to sort that out.

 

[takno]

Going form my observations, I would be surprised if the Virgin West Coast services did not turn a profit, there always seems to be a queue.

In my experience that's usually because either the coffee machine or the card machine is broken and the staff are unable to serve the next customer while they're waiting for the previous transaction to complete

 

[Ianno87]

But London to Norwich is certainly far enough to finish ones drink and feel thirsty again half way through. That distance is definitely long enough for catering.

In the case of King's Lynn, only a minority of passengers go all the way. The bulk of demand is to Cambridge, Ely and (to some extent) Downham Market.

 

[dk1]

Because there are no crew based anywhere in Scotland other than Edinburgh.

According to XC new December timetable, select Aberdeen & Penzance services will have catering provided. Not before time in my opinion.

 

[221129]

According to XC new December timetable, select Aberdeen & Penzance services will have catering provided. Not before time in my opinion.

I knew about Penzance but I am very surprised about Aberdeen. I can't see that being very popular.

 

[dk1]

I knew about Penzance but I am very surprised about Aberdeen. I can't see that being very popular.

06:42 Dundee-Aberdeen & the 08:20 return look to be covered Mon-Sat. Nothing Sundays or on the evening trip. I would've thought the up working is reasonably busy.

 

[221129]

06:42 Dundee-Aberdeen & the 08:20 return look to be covered Mon-Sat. Nothing Sundays or on the evening trip. I would've thought the up working is reasonably busy.

Easy Edinburgh job then. Will see what happens I guess.

 

[ScotTrains]

Because there are no crew based anywhere in Scotland other than Edinburgh.

That may be the reason but it's no excuse. The majority of passengers expect to have catering onboard long distance intercity trains especially on key services such as the 0820 Penzance departure from Aberdeen.

Edinburgh to Aberdeen is quite a significant distance. If they sold 4 coffees at £2.30 and 3 crisps at a pound...

I gaurantee they would sell a lot more than that! At the weekend the Aberdeen service and the 1811 return from Edinburgh are often packed, with people standing on leaving Edinburgh. The Glasgow services are also very busy on departure, again often standing leaving Glasgow. I rarely travel midweek so cannot comment on the midweek loadings. Other than being TOO busy I don't understand why XC cannot provide catering on the Glasgow extensions either.

 

[dk1]

Caught the 09:35 Penzance Manchester from St.Erth last year & the train was very well loaded by Truro. The TM had several requests for catering just around me & eventually made a PA announcement advising that the trolley does not board until Plymouth. By then most wanted something & it was Tiverton before it reached us. I understand logistics & the general loss maker that on board services make but some routes really do deserve better.

 

[47802]

Going form my observations, I would be surprised if the Virgin West Coast services did not turn a profit, there always seems to be a queue. Not that amounts to empirical proof of profitability of course. In other cases could a trolley be a 'loss leader' to attract passengers on longer distance services? Only a very well-prepared passenger is going to have enough food and drink on them for a 2 hour journey, and if TOC's want to promote a long distance journey as an attractive travel option to people who might not use the train it could help.

Well possibly but they have a bigger captive customer base than a Northern 2 Car Sprinter for instance, plus you could argue its one thing to provide catering regardless of whether the catering is profitable or not on a profitable InterCity route, but quite another to provide potentially loss making catering on a highly subsidised TOC like Northern.

 

[dk1]

Norwich to London services can often do surprisingly well. Busy Saturday services can often not shift the queue for the entire journey. Even a recent middle Day return run saw the solo buffet host take almost £450 & remember 1st class get basic rations for free.

 

[mark-h]

But given how lucrative on-board catering is for low-cost airlines- many of whose routes are shorter in time than domestic train journeys- I'm a bit surprised.

The airlines need to provide 1 cabin crew per 50 customers. Since the staff are already on board then it makes sense for them to have other duties such as catering.

Also on most flights the passengers are there for the full flight rather than on the railways which have frequent stops.

 

[Jonfun]

I think for catering's ongoing sustainability on intercity routes the way we'll see things going is staff being more multiskilled - that way you're not paying a member of staff just to do the catering (which unfortunately is often seen as lost money), you'd also be paying them to do revenue/customer service/passenger assist/station duties etc. XC were looking at that sort of thing at one point and loosely implemented it with the RPIs and Station Staff (who also covered catering) merging roles but it didn't really go any further than that.
It's unlikely to work on routes where they contract out the catering and pay them naff all but for TOCs (generally long-distance) who employ proper full-time railway staff to do the catering then I believe it could.

 

[cuccir]

The Settle-Carlisle example does make me wonder if one option, particularly on long-distance but relatively rural lines, would be more collaborations between local caterers and TOCs. For example on some of the referenced lines here: there's a cafe at Millom station; could they partner with Northern to run a caterer could run (say) Millom - Whitehaven and back on a few of the services, restocking at Millom? Or someone doing Blackburn to Bradford on the Calder Valley Line? This sort of approach would limit costs which would perhaps make an operation profitable; at the very least, it would create a base that could then be more easily expanded or scrapped if it worked or didn't.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

I read an interesting leaked email by the CEO of XC last week which described the state of the internal catering (not the 170 routes) as being a patient in cardiac arrest or words to that effect, can't remember it exactly. Apparently losses are astronomical. I would not be surprised if it was rationalised drastically or rail gourmeted-out after the next franchise let in 2019.