Services which ought to have a refreshment trolley

[221129]

I read an interesting leaked email by the CEO of XC last week which described the state of the internal catering (not the 170 routes) as being a patient in cardiac arrest or words to that effect, can't remember it exactly. Apparently losses are astronomical. I would not be surprised if it was rationalised drastically or rail gourmeted-out after the next franchise let in 2019.

Was that not the old email from a while ago by one of the directors before they were found to be fiddling the books?

 

[Tetchytyke]

XC is a funny one. Getting rid of the buffet counter was, I believe, a massive error. It'll also be interested to see which budget code the high cost of ripping the counters out was allocated to...

 

[MG11]

I read an interesting leaked email by the CEO of XC last week which described the state of the internal catering (not the 170 routes) as being a patient in cardiac arrest or words to that effect, can't remember it exactly. Apparently losses are astronomical. I would not be surprised if it was rationalised drastically or rail gourmeted-out after the next franchise let in 2019.

Why would it be that Rail Gourmet could turn a profit on trolleys but in house catering couldn't? What would they be doing differently??

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Why would it be that Rail Gourmet could turn a profit on trolleys but in house catering couldn't? What would they be doing differently??

I don't believe rail gourmet turn a profit on each trolley turn. They are paid a set fee by a TOC to run the service but the TOC washes it's hands of sickness, pensions, management issues, training costs, uniforms, etc etc.

 

[MG11]

I don't believe rail gourmet turn a profit on each trolley turn. They are paid a set fee by a TOC to run the service but the TOC washes it's hands of sickness, pensions, management issues, training costs, uniforms, etc etc.

It would be the same thing if instead of the fees, the TOC paid for the extra train crew's pensions etc and then pocketed from the profits. OK, the profits the TOC would make are smaller than the profit rail gorumet make, because Rail Gourmet get a running cost subsidy from the TOC, but wouldn't small profit for the company be better than another company (Rail Gourmet/Fisco) taking the profits?

 

[Spankthemonkey]

It would be the same thing if instead of the fees, the TOC paid for the extra train crew's pensions etc and then pocketed from the profits. OK, the profits the TOC would make are smaller than the profit rail gorumet make, because Rail Gourmet get a running cost subsidy from the TOC, but wouldn't small profit for the company be better than another company (Rail Gourmet/Fisco) taking the profits?

XC are paying trolley staff huge money. Rail gourmet staff do not have the same pressure from trade unions so can pay minimum wage, statutory sick, minimum booking on time etc. I'd guess it's a saving of around 50% per staff hour when all costs are factored in.
Also consider catering company offer. Very little is fresh. They reduce waste by selling packaged stuff with long lifespans, whereas all the fresh stuff on the intercities is canned at the end of the day, or given to homeless projects.

 

[TheSeeker]

Does the UK classify trains like they do on the continent? L, IR, IC, EC etc? I seem to remember an EC train could only be called that if it had on board catering and a certain number of seats with tables.

 

[MG11]

XC are paying trolley staff huge money. Rail gourmet staff do not have the same pressure from trade unions so can pay minimum wage, statutory sick, minimum booking on time etc. I'd guess it's a saving of around 50% per staff hour when all costs are factored in.
Also consider catering company offer. Very little is fresh. They reduce waste by selling packaged stuff with long lifespans, whereas all the fresh stuff on the intercities is canned at the end of the day, or given to homeless projects.

That's an interesting point. I know a few years ago, ATW At Seat Catering staff were paid close to minimum wage to begin with. I think Rail Gourmet staff have the same rights as other employees though? I know they can join the RMT and EMT RG staff get full travel perks after 6 months.

 

[Clip]

That's an interesting point. I know a few years ago, ATW At Seat Catering staff were paid close to minimum wage to begin with. I think Rail Gourmet staff have the same rights as other employees though? I know they can join the RMT and EMT RG staff get full travel perks after 6 months.

Anyone can join a union but what happens if RG don't recognise said union then they can only ensure that all procedures are followed correctly and no collective bargaining for pay and conditions.

That is a nice perk emt provide though - it may even be in the contract.

 

[Bookd]

Going form my observations, I would be surprised if the Virgin West Coast services did not turn a profit, there always seems to be a queue. Not that amounts to empirical proof of profitability of course. In other cases could a trolley be a 'loss leader' to attract passengers on longer distance services? Only a very well-prepared passenger is going to have enough food and drink on them for a 2 hour journey, and if TOC's want to promote a long distance journey as an attractive travel option to people who might not use the train it could help.

I must be old fashioned but I am accustomed to having breakfast, lunch and dinner. I might enjoy a beer or coffee on a train if it is available, but having insufficient food and drink for a two hour journey is hardly likely to result in starvation!

 

[Spankthemonkey]

That's an interesting point. I know a few years ago, ATW At Seat Catering staff were paid close to minimum wage to begin with. I think Rail Gourmet staff have the same rights as other employees though? I know they can join the RMT and EMT RG staff get full travel perks after 6 months.

Travel perk does not cost emt anything. Infact, you might see it as a business builder if they travel with fare paying friends/relatives.
It's just a case of why does anyone contract anything out? Are station cleaning teams in-house? Is gateline security in-house? If it is more cost effective to let someone else bare the risks then TOC's surely will.
How long before agency guards or drivers appear?

 

[MG11]

Travel perk does not cost emt anything. Infact, you might see it as a business builder if they travel with fare paying friends/relatives.
It's just a case of why does anyone contract anything out? Are station cleaning teams in-house? Is gateline security in-house? If it is more cost effective to let someone else bare the risks then TOC's surely will.
How long before agency guards or drivers appear?

EMT's gateline security (RPOs + CSOs) are generally in house. I have noticed some ageny RPOs on the gateline late at night at Derby though. XC are mainly contracted to Transport Investigations Ltd. Back to the topic in hand though, one does wonder why XC do their Voyager catering in-house and not the Turbostar catering.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

EMT's gateline security (RPOs + CSOs) are generally in house. I have noticed some ageny RPOs on the gateline late at night at Derby though. XC are mainly contracted to Transport Investigations Ltd. Back to the topic in hand though, one does wonder why XC do their Voyager catering in-house and not the Turbostar catering.

No facilities on the 170's to offer the comparible menu

 

[MG11]

No facilities on the 170's to offer the comparible menu

I know they couldn't offer the hot panninis but all the rest would be ok from a trolley and hot flask?

 

[221129]

I know they couldn't offer the hot panninis but all the rest would be ok from a trolley and hot flask?

No way of filling the flask or storing the trolley on board.

 

[MG11]

No way of filling the flask or storing the trolley on board.

That's funny because First Onboard operate a flask and a trolley on Turbostars...

 

[221129]

That's funny because First Onboard operate a flask and a trolley on Turbostars...

They aren't stored or filled on board though. If it was brought in house the only place they could be replenished is Birmingham new St

 

[MG11]

They aren't stored or filled on board though. If it was brought in house the only place they could be replenished is Birmingham new St

Ahh OK I see.

 

[221129]

Ahh OK I see.

Which doesn't have the storage space or the capacity as they struggle enough at the best of times.

 

[MG11]

Which doesn't have the storage space or the capacity as they struggle enough at the best of times.

Do First Onboard use XC's service centre at New St or do they have their own one there do you know?

 

[221129]

Do First Onboard use XC's service centre at New St or do they have their own one there do you know?

They sort themselves out.

 

[MG11]

They sort themselves out.

Ahh ok, thanks for confirming.

 

[Jonfun]

I read an interesting leaked email by the CEO of XC last week which described the state of the internal catering (not the 170 routes) as being a patient in cardiac arrest or words to that effect, can't remember it exactly. Apparently losses are astronomical. I would not be surprised if it was rationalised drastically or rail gourmeted-out after the next franchise let in 2019.

It's funny these sorts of emails come out right before the pay talks (!)

 

[yorksrob]

Caught the 09:35 Penzance Manchester from St.Erth last year & the train was very well loaded by Truro. The TM had several requests for catering just around me & eventually made a PA announcement advising that the trolley does not board until Plymouth. By then most wanted something & it was Tiverton before it reached us. I understand logistics & the general loss maker that on board services make but some routes really do deserve better.

Great Western's HST's are very good in that the buffet seems to be open at least to and from Redruth.
Lets hope that the trolley service on the new trains stretches that far !

 

[yorksrob]

In the case of King's Lynn, only a minority of passengers go all the way. The bulk of demand is to Cambridge, Ely and (to some extent) Downham Market.

I think Cambridge is still far enough to justify it.

 

[yorksrob]

I read an interesting leaked email by the CEO of XC last week which described the state of the internal catering (not the 170 routes) as being a patient in cardiac arrest or words to that effect, can't remember it exactly. Apparently losses are astronomical. I would not be surprised if it was rationalised drastically or rail gourmeted-out after the next franchise let in 2019.

I wonder whether its a case of a company not knowing its customers. I brought a cup of tea off the trolley once and it was a whopping £2.60. Most of their customers aren't going to be London business types.

 

[BigCj34]

I must be old fashioned but I am accustomed to having breakfast, lunch and dinner. I might enjoy a beer or coffee on a train if it is available, but having insufficient food and drink for a two hour journey is hardly likely to result in starvation!

I do the same, as do most of us. I may even bring a packed lunch and a flask to save money. It would be interesting to know if having onboard catering or not influences passengers decision to travel by train, and whether it could be used as a loss leader if its not profitable on its own.

 

[380101]

Glasgow Central - Dumfries - Carlisle Scotrail services were meant to have an on-board catering trolley service from April 2017 as per the Franchise agreement. It hasn't happened, which is not surprising given the financial difficulties Abellio seem to be experiencing lately.

 

[Ianno87]

I think Cambridge is still far enough to justify it.

But Cambridge (and King's Cross) already have more good quality coffee places that you can shake a stick at! Cambridge has 3 x AMT kiosks and the West Cornwall Pasty Company on the station alone plus Caffe Nero, Pret and the Ibis hotel right outside.

Nobody is going to buy on the train when you can get much superior quality coffee at the same price before boarding, without the uncertainty of 'will there or won't there be a trolley?'

Plus by the time the trolley has reached you, you'd have to scald down the coffee before King's Cross anyway (the 'Stansted Express conundrum')

 

[mpthomson]

A quick scroll through TOCs' Twitter feeds reveals many customers complaining about lack of catering.....

How many? Enough to make it profitable? Which is actually the issue. If it was profitable then any TOC would do it. It clearly isn't, so they don't.