Services with First Class but First Class tickets unavailable for purchase

[Intercity 225]

Hi,

What’s the rules regarding travelling in First Class when only Standard Class tickets are available for purchase?

Example

Customer wishes to travel from Nottingham to Manchester at 21:00 on a weekday:

The first train they’d get would be the 21:08 from Nottingham to Sheffield - an EMT HST with First Class accommodation.

The second train they’d get would be the 22:11 from Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly - a TPE service with First Class accommodation.

As far as I’m aware there aren’t any First Class fare options between Nottingham and Manchester. As such, could the customer travel in First Class with their Standard Class ticket?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

As far as I’m aware there aren’t any First Class fare options between Nottingham and Manchester. As such, could the customer travel in First Class with their Standard Class ticket?

There are certainly First Class fares for intermediate stretches of the journey, so if someone wanted to do that journey by First Class they would have to obtain a combination of tickets. If there are no First Class fares available at all, then travel by First Class is simply not permitted. You must have a First Class ticket for travel in First Class; the only exception is when the train is not timetabled as having First Class, or where there is temporary (e.g. overcrowding) or permanent (e.g. back of Thameslink 700s) declassification.

 

[alistairlees]

No, you are not entitled to sit in 1st class class with a standard class ticket. It's just the railway's loss.

 

[Intercity 225]

There are certainly First Class fares for intermediate stretches of the journey, so if someone wanted to do that journey by First Class they would have to obtain a combination of tickets. If there are no First Class fares available at all, then travel by First Class is simply not permitted. You must have a First Class ticket for travel in First Class; the only exception is when the train is not timetabled as having First Class, or where there is temporary (e.g. overcrowding) or permanent (e.g. back of Thameslink 700s) declassification.

Thanks for the reply.

So just to check I’ve understood this correctly (using my original Nottingham to Manchester example), if the customer wanted to travel First Class they would need to purchase:

1. A Standard Class ticket from Nottingham to Chesterfield
2. A First Class ticket from Chesterfield to Sheffield
3. A First Class ticket from Sheffield to Manchester

But they’d only be able to sit in First Class on the Nottingham to Sheffield train once they’d reached Chesterfield?

Or is there an upgrade available that they could purchase to cover the Nottingham to Chesterfield portion of the journey?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Or is there an upgrade available that they could purchase to cover the Nottingham to Chesterfield portion of the journey?

There is an EMT First Class upgrade available for purchase (for Nottingham-Chesterfield/Sheffield, though the Chesterfield one is much worse value than the Sheffield one!). It is not clear whether it should officially speaking be purchased before travel when travelling Monday-Friday, however I understand it is normal custom and practice for it to be sold on board on weekdays without penalty (in the same way as Weekend First).

 

[Qwerty133]

Isn't there a formula for booking offices to make up a first class fare on the spot where one doesn't otherwise exist?

 

[Haywain]

Isn't there a formula for booking offices to make up a first class fare on the spot where one doesn't otherwise exist?

No, there isn't.

 

[sheff1]

Isn't there a formula for booking offices to make up a first class fare on the spot where one doesn't otherwise exist?

There was when I worked in a booking office, but it has long since been removed on the grounds of progress.

 

[Haywain]

There was when I worked in a booking office, but it has long since been removed on the grounds of progress.

Many years ago there was a formula, but at that time first class fares were a percentage higher than standard (or second) class fares. It wasn't about pricing first at what the market will bear.

 

[sheff1]

Exactly.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Isn't there a formula for booking offices to make up a first class fare on the spot where one doesn't otherwise exist?

It used to be 1.5 times the standard open

 

[Deerfold]

I've had a couple of journeys before now where I've had a promotional fare London Kings Cross - Leeds on the 1803 London - Skipton service but no ticket on joining the train for Leeds - Keighley (where a reasonable fare is available I'd buy straight through, but sometimes it'd be £50 or more extra which is ridiculous). I've offered to buy a ticket from the guard for the rest of the journey when they checked my ticket. Once I was sold a standard ticket, once I was told there was no First class ticket for that journey and not charged. In both cases I was told to stay in 1st.

 

[Intercity 225]

Thanks for all the additional replies.

There is an EMT First Class upgrade available for purchase (for Nottingham-Chesterfield/Sheffield, though the Chesterfield one is much worse value than the Sheffield one!). It is not clear whether it should officially speaking be purchased before travel when travelling Monday-Friday, however I understand it is normal custom and practice for it to be sold on board on weekdays without penalty (in the same way as Weekend First).

Ah ok, that makes sense. So the customer would be best off purchasing:

1. A Standard Class ticket between Nottingham and Sheffield
2. A EMT First Class Upgrade (either at Nottingham or on board)
3. A First Class ticket between Sheffield and Manchester

Have I got that right?

Isn't there a formula for booking offices to make up a first class fare on the spot where one doesn't otherwise exist?

Many years ago there was a formula, but at that time first class fares were a percentage higher than standard (or second) class fares. It wasn't about pricing first at what the market will bear.

It used to be 1.5 times the standard open

That’s interesting, when was this formula removed?

 

[Haywain]

That’s interesting, when was this formula removed?

I have no idea (I can't imagine it survived privatisation), but the 1.5 times the standard fare even in BR days only worked for Open tickets, and there is no fixed differential these days.

 

[Marton]

I wanted a 1st Middlesbrough to Wigan but it doesn’t exist

I sat in 1st and asked to upgrade. The guard was surprised there wasn’t a fare so rang his control who said charge £x. I forget the fare but I think it was the weekend upgrade fee.

Considering that is 1st to Manchester I was surprised.

It is wrong to deny passengers a first class seat (I wanted a single seat to read private papers) on the grounds of no fare.

 

[John @ home]

It appears that the only Frist Class fare between Middlesbrough and either of the Wigan stations is the £10 Weekend First Class Upgrade MIDDLESBROUGH - WIGAN NORTH WEST Route TPE ONLY.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MBR&dest=WGN&rte=85&tkt=WET

 

[infobleep]

London Road (Guildford) to Sutton has no first class fares. This will apply to all stations between their and Bookham. Not sure if it applies at Leatherhead. It all also apply between London Road (Guildford) and other stations served by the few Southern branded trains that run to or from Guildford.

Those use to only be standard class but now they convey first class. Apparently it was consider popular. Obviously not popular enough to ask South Western Railway to create first class fares.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

London Road (Guildford) to Sutton has no first class fares. This will apply to all stations between their and Bookham. Not sure if it applies at Leatherhead. It all also apply between London Road (Guildford) and other stations served by the few Southern branded trains that run to or from Guildford.

Those use to only be standard class but now they convey first class. Apparently it was consider popular. Obviously not popular enough to ask South Western Railway to create first class fares.

I suspect if someone contacted their customer services, they may well ask the Pricing Manager to introduce first class fares - although, as with most pro-customer changes, it will probably take a long time and only be introduced in January's fares changes.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suspect if someone contacted their customer services, they may well ask the Pricing Manager to introduce first class fares - although, as with most pro-customer changes, it will probably take a long time and only be introduced in January's fares changes.

The Southern service on that route (with first accommodation) is shortly being removed completely, it probably only remains after Dec because of the timetable changes being deferred. I doubt they’ll change anything for a short period of a few months.

 

[Haywain]

Those use to only be standard class but now they convey first class. Apparently it was consider popular. Obviously not popular enough to ask South Western Railway to create first class fares.

Of course, SWR don't operate the service so have no reason to be aware of 1st class accommodation being conveyed. And Pricing Managers are not allowed to talk to each other!

 

[Deerfold]

And Pricing Managers are not allowed to talk to each other!

They're not allowed to collude.
I'm not sure there's a complete ban on them talking.

 

[Haywain]

They're not allowed to collude.
I'm not sure there's a complete ban on them talking.

Semantics. I think one asking another to create a fare is close enough to collusion for them not to want to do it, and I have worked closely with a few pricing managers so understand their thinking on such matters.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Semantics. I think one asking another to create a fare is close enough to collusion for them not to want to do it, and I have worked closely with a few pricing managers so understand their thinking on such matters.

Is there a provision in the TSA that prevents Southern from setting their own first-class fares (routed "Southern only" if necessary)?

 

[Deerfold]

Semantics. I think one asking another to create a fare is close enough to collusion for them not to want to do it, and I have worked closely with a few pricing managers so understand their thinking on such matters.

If they don't give any indication of what they want the fare to be, I can't see it being collusion.
A simple "This fare doesn't exist, please can you create it" seems fairly innocent.

 

[infobleep]

Of course, SWR don't operate the service so have no reason to be aware of 1st class accommodation being conveyed. And Pricing Managers are not allowed to talk to each other!

I did not know that. Of course I assume that's to stop anti conpetive practices which I can understand to an extent.

 

[infobleep]

The Southern service on that route (with first accommodation) is shortly being removed completely, it probably only remains after Dec because of the timetable changes being deferred. I doubt they’ll change anything for a short period of a few months.

I read on here, sorry I can't remember who posted, that first class was introduced on that route because they felt there was a demand for it. It could be that there is enough demand from stations where the journey is priced by Southern or Guildford, where a first class fare exists to one's destination from Guildford that is.

 

[Merseysider]

If they don't give any indication of what they want the fare to be, I can't see it being collusion.
A simple "This fare doesn't exist, please can you create it" seems fairly innocent.

Yes, that’s fine. I’ve been copied into emails which have essentially been just this, following an email to one TOC who then asked another.

 

[kkong]

I have no idea (I can't imagine it survived privatisation), but the 1.5 times the standard fare even in BR days only worked for Open tickets, and there is no fixed differential these days.

It did survive privatisation - by quite a long time,

See extract below from National Fares Manual 95 (2007).

 

[AY1975]

London Road (Guildford) to Sutton has no first class fares. This will apply to all stations between their and Bookham. Not sure if it applies at Leatherhead. It all also apply between London Road (Guildford) and other stations served by the few Southern branded trains that run to or from Guildford.

Those use to only be standard class but now they convey first class. Apparently it was consider popular. Obviously not popular enough to ask South Western Railway to create first class fares.

I presume you are referring to the three daily Guildford-London Bridge trains that are run by Southern?

I didn't know they had First Class - that's news to me. According to the online timetable on the German Railways (DB) site (www.bahn.de), which covers Britain and pretty much all of mainland Europe, they are Standard Class only. Unfortunately the journey planner on the National Rail site doesn't appear to tell you whether or not a train has First Class.

 

[swt_passenger]

I presume you are referring to the three daily Guildford-London Bridge trains that are run by Southern?

I didn't know they had First Class - that's news to me. According to the online timetable on the German Railways (DB) site (www.bahn.de), which covers Britain and pretty much all of mainland Europe, they are Standard Class only. Unfortunately the journey planner on the National Rail site doesn't appear to tell you whether or not a train has First Class.

The timetabled service doesn’t have first class. It is however currently being operated by 377 stock with first class. But that is temporary because SN are expected to stop serving Guildford as soon as the timetable re-writing issues are resolved. Some posters seem to think that justifies First fares being generated.