Set Down only stops with an ALR?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by MCR247, 4 Dec 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

    Messages:
    9,082
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2008
    Now I know that if you had a ticket say from Stratford to Liv st, and you boarded a Set down only train, they could charge you from the last stop.

    But what happens if you do this with an ALR? Would I have to pay some sort of penalty fare? (I'm still talking about Stratford - Liverpool St)
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,260
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    It's valid, so they can't charge you anything. You can't get a penalty fare for using a valid ticket! I doubt they could charge a penalty fare if you used a ticket from Stratford anyway.

    We once boarded a train at Stratford and attempted to stand behind the locomotive, on Travelcards. The guard saw us board and walked the length of the train to say that the vestibule was considered first class, so we had to walk through first class to standard class for the short 5 minute journey. No mention was made of the train being set-down only. The train showed up on the departure & arrival screens I'm sure as well. This was 2005ish when class 86s were still running.
     
  4. Lampshade

    Lampshade Established Member

    Messages:
    3,565
    Joined:
    3 Sep 2009
    Location:
    South London
    Surely an ALR means just that, all lines, therefore all trains that run on said lines :)
     
  5. t0ffeeman

    t0ffeeman Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    11 Jul 2008
    Once took an Inter City West Coast to Motherwell intending to catch another train to Glasgow later using an ALR.

    On arrival was told that Scotrail were on strike and there were no trains to Glasgow. As Motherwell was set down only the train times weren't displayed and I wasn't going to hang about for just any IC WC train to turn up. This is in the days before PIS arrival screens of course.
     
  6. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

    Messages:
    9,082
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2008
    Ok, thanks :)
     
  7. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    There are two issues here.

    The first is that the stop is not a legitimate picking up point so you can quite rightly be refused access to the train. It is made a set down stop for a reason.

    In years gone by in the case of Rover tickets, the excess rules were that the Rover was treated as a day return and thus the excess would be to the next available fare from the last calling point.

    In the case of say a Liverpool Lime St to Euston, the excess would be the difference between a std day return to Watford Jct to Euston and the next available ticket Runcorn to Euston, which could be a std open single.

    I have known excessing in this nature to be done with season ticket holders for example who started to jump on a the overnight Inverness to Euston which used to call at Bletchley around 0700ish, and was set down only then right away Euston. In their case it was the difference between the Std singles.

    I would suggest that you wait until one of the Revenue Protection professionals comes online to give a definitive answer.

    Yorkie
    Your answer is incorrect. The train is NOT available to joining passengers at that station. It thus cannot be joined. This makes the ticket invalid for that journey - Condition 16 in the NCOC.

    As a Rover is a discounted ticket then I would imagine the normal penalty fares rules would apply, although I am now out of date with the current practices.

    The correct answer will be given to us by one of the Revenue Protection professionals after reference to the TEH or todays equivalent.
     
  8. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,260
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    You cannot be penalty fared on a valid ticket.

    Possible reasons for a PF:-

    No ticket = Nope!
    Std to 1st = Nope!
    Out of date = Nope!
    Travel beyond validity = Nope!
    No supporting document = Nope!
    Adult on child ticket = Nope!
    Other = Nope!
    Oyster not valid = Nope!

    How can you be PFd for being valid?!?!?! That is absurd

    Some rail employees are WORSE than Basil Fawlty! Honestly. I despair!

    Ridiculous.

    "Sorry Sir, your ticket is valid from the previous pick up station, but I'm going to give you a penalty fare anyway because I say it isn't valid because I make up my own rules" Hmmm... if anyone did that, we'd take it as far as it needed to be taken!

    As I said before, we weren't excessed for being on a Travelcard so if you have a ticket valid from the previous pick up station (Chelmsford/Colchester), which the ALR clearly is valid, then there is no way they are going to excess/PF you, as you are valid. They cannot PF you if your ticket is valid.
     
  9. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

    Messages:
    24,121
    Joined:
    1 Feb 2009
    Location:
    UK
    My understanding of set down early is for services where the train will not be forced to wait and leave at a set time - particularly useful for Intercity trains where the train could potentially be 20-30 minutes ahead of schedule and passengers don't want to be held for no reason.

    If I saw such a train and knew where it was going and boarded (with a valid ticket) then I'd really want to see it challenged in court as to whether I could be refused access or charged from the last station (which, could in theory, be hundreds of miles away).
     
  10. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,260
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    It is dubious that they could charge you from the last station, but even if they can do that, if you already hold a ticket that is valid from the previous station such as an ALR then there really can be no doubt at all that they cannot possibly charge you again. The fact that anyone can be in any doubt about that demonstrates that the rail industry is the most customer-unfriendly industry in this country and urgently needs reforms to protect customers interests and that it's employees urgently need training to ensure they provide good customer service.
     
  11. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    Exactly WHAT does it take for you to understand that the train is stopping to SET DOWN it is therefore NOT a booked service ergo it does not stop at the station to pick up.

    This has been tested in Court already and there are plenty of precedents for this.

    An ALR is not the same as a full fare ticket as it is a discounted ticket, ergo you are trying to travel on a discounted ticket from a station where the train does not stop. Absolutely no different to any train stopping out of course at an unbooked calling point.

    You are therefore joining outside the validity of the ticket, as the ticket cannot be used for the journey you are making on that train.

    YOU are well out of order in suggesting anyone should join a service that is booked to set down only.

    It is also less than worthy to make sarcastic comments about matters which are outside your outside your experience. You may sell tickets however you are not involved in ticket inspection.

    I will wait for a current view on this from someone who is experienced in Revenue Protection, however my observations as to BR practices stand exactly as before.
     
    Last edited: 5 Dec 2009
  12. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

    Messages:
    9,082
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2008
    Ok, thanks for the help old Timer, I think I might just not risk it. BTW on a side note to Set Down Only trains come onto the arrival/departure screens at Stratford? If so, couldnt someone just say they didnt know?
     
  13. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,260
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    No, it is well out of order to suggest that a customer holding a valid ticket can be penalty fared.

    As for the "newby" comment, what happened in the 1980s or even the 1990s is largely irrelevant to the present day. Interesting, of course, but doesn't determine validity.

    As for precedents, what are they exactly? Details please?

    I've only ever heard of people being charged for the journey from the previous stop, but that cannot be done if a valid ticket for that is already held!!!

    If I got to EUS and present an ALR that is of course perfectly valid to Crewe, there is nothing anyone can do when I get off at MKC, this is different to having a ticket only to MKC. Charging someone with a ticket to MKC the excess to Crewe is dubiously legal, but I accept it may have been done, and may still be done today. That doesn't make it legal, but I am not saying it is illegal - just that it could easily be contested. However the only 'punishment' they can do is issue a ticket to Crewe. They cannot imprison you. So if a ticket to Crewe is held then they cannot do anything!

    I once got off a sleeper at a station that was not advertised to set-down, I made sure I had a ticket that was valid to the next stop. There's no way someone could have then tried to justify taking more money off me, as my ticket was perfectly valid and is exactly what they would excess someone to, who held a ticket to the 'barred' stop.

    You did not answer the question about what option a PF would be issued under. I gave the list earlier. None of them are applicable. Can you say which one applies?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    What is the risk? It's your choice but if I had an ALR I would do it.
    I've not looked for years but I'm sure in 2005/2006 they appeared on the screens , which were dual arrival/departure screens, it said from Norwich to London. These screens may have been replaced or they may have changed since then.

    If you did it on a Travelcard (which we did with nothing said about them not being valid) then they could theoretically charge you from Chelmsford. But you have a ticket that is valid from Chelmsford - so what can they do? You are valid!
     
  14. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    When you purchase a ticket your enter into a logal Contract of a completely diffrent sort to that which you do in a shop. That is why there are specific Conditions of Carriage relating to travel. You accept such Conditions when you buy the ticket. As with all things it is a case of Cavet Emptor.

    The Contract is for the journey you are taking AT THE TIME and the ticket must be valid for the particular train and the circumstance of THAT journey.

    A ticket cannot be valid on a specific train if the train is not booked to stop for passengers at that point.

    Someone travelling on an ALR is travelling on a reduced fare ticket, therefore the same rules apply as if the person held any other type of reduced ticket and joined the train.

    You cannot argue that the ALR is valid because the actual journey you are making is B to A whereas the train is running from Z to A but last called at C.

    I really do not understand where you are coming from yet but you clearly have some issues with the Railways and are on some sort of personal crusade which appear at times to be against the interests of both the Railways and your employer, assuming it IS a TOC.

    The timetables are, I think still quite clear about passengers not being permitted to join at stops where a train is stopping to set down only. Suggesting to potential passengers that they may join such a service at a set down only stop is wrong both as a Railwayman and as an employee.
     
  15. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,260
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
  16. SqUaShIe P

    SqUaShIe P Member

    Messages:
    179
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2009
    Location:
    England
    Set down onlys have always been abit of a grey area for me. One RPI told me that the correct thing to do is to excess the ticket to the last stop.
    Its a weird one, becuase shenfield is also a set down only on a norwich to london liv.st. service, yet, quite often, the dispatcher on the platform at shenfield will happily put people on the train eventhough its a set down only, and i feel like i cant go and charge someone an excess when a NXEA employee has just let them on the train.
    In the case of stratford to london liv.st. on DOO services(say from southend), there isnt anyone to check to check tickets onboard, and on a service with a guard, the guard is most probably cashed up already or sitting in the buffet with a cup of tea. And then when you get to liverpool street, with a stratford to liverpool street ticket, no ones going to know if you have come off a metro service or an intercity, so it wouldnt really matter.
    I do think it is penalty fare'able because the person would have traved on a train without a valid ticket.
     
  17. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

    Messages:
    24,121
    Joined:
    1 Feb 2009
    Location:
    UK
    If the train shows on a screen at Stratford, you could easily see someone not noticing 'set down only' if that's at the bottom or not shown on a summary board. I say this without having a clue what screens/displays are in use so feel free to shoot me down if the warnings are incredibly obvious and staff are there to guard the train and stop people getting on.

    Goodness knows what happens if someone who is hard of hearing or has poor vision got on, or someone runs onto the platform and sees a train saying 'Liverpool Street' on the front and jumps on before even seeing a screen. I could see myself doing this quite innocently and, boy, would I kick up a fuss if the train doors closed and a RPI suddenly greeted me with a PF!

    As I said, set down only has a clear benefit for running a long distance service - and that's being able to leave early. Therefore, nobody would usually expect to plan a journey around such a train - but if it was sitting right there, why wouldn't someone get on if the doors were open?
     
  18. SqUaShIe P

    SqUaShIe P Member

    Messages:
    179
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2009
    Location:
    England
    I cant do PFs But in my unpaid fare book theres a box for 'restricted ticket'
    If i had to chose a bok on that FCC PF, Id probablt tick 06 OTHER :D
     
  19. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,260
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    The only way both these statements can be correct, is if your last statement only to applies to someone on a ticket not valid from the last stop.

    I have also heard that tickets issued from the last stop are valid, and that technically someone can be charged this, so if that is correct, then a ticket that is already issued from the last stop or valid from the last stop cannot then be deemed to be invalid. Otherwise, what's to stop a guard pulling someone up with a SRA-LST ticket, and issuing an excess from Chelmsford, only for an RPI to then get there and check the ticket and say "You boarded at Stratford, but your ticket is from Chelmsford and that still isn't valid so here's a PF" that is impossible, and absurd.

    So can you confirm that when you say it is penalty fare'able, you are only applying that statement to someone who had a ticket that was not valid from the previous stop (usually Chelmsford in this case)?
     
  20. SqUaShIe P

    SqUaShIe P Member

    Messages:
    179
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2009
    Location:
    England
    The screens at Shenfield and stratford say:
    ***************
    THIS SERVICE IS A
    SET DOWN ONLY

    PLEASE DO NOT
    BOARD THIS TRAIN
    ***************

    And they dont show anything on the arrivals/departure screens
     
  21. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,260
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    And what description would you apply to other? You said in your last post that a ticket issued from Chelmsford is valid as you stated that an RPI would issue such a ticket. Now you deem such a ticket invalid? So why is an RPI issuing an invalid ticket?
     
  22. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    My choice would be 6 however I do accept to being somewhat out of touch with the current arrangements, which is why I suggest obtaining a view from a professional from the revenue protection organisation.
     
  23. SqUaShIe P

    SqUaShIe P Member

    Messages:
    179
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2009
    Location:
    England
    If they had a ticket from colchester or chelmsford, then i wouldnt change them anyway, but i would make them aware that they are not supposed to board the train as it is a set down only.

    for other, Id put they boarded at a set down only stop.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Also, id like to add, ive only done that excess once. On most occasions, i would have probably cashed up already.
     
  24. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

    Messages:
    24,121
    Joined:
    1 Feb 2009
    Location:
    UK
    The screens make it pretty clear then - but what about my example of someone running up/down to the platform - seeing a train come in with Liverpool St on the front and boarding without even looking at the screens?

    Will the onboard information system warn people not to board? Are there loud 'DO NOT BOARD THIS TRAIN' announcements?

    How can you actually stop someone boarding? The screen says 'PLEASE DO NOT', surely it shouldn't be saying that but rather 'DO NOT board this train under any circumstances'.

    Mind you, considering the interpretations of 'do not cross the line' and other signs - it's no wonder everyone gets so confused!!
     
  25. SqUaShIe P

    SqUaShIe P Member

    Messages:
    179
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2009
    Location:
    England
    Theres nothing really to stop anyone from boarding. No announcements, just the message on the screens.
    I usually work a Cl90 hauled set so theres no destination screen on the front of my train, and stratford is bi-directional, so my train can, and had stopped at many different platforms, so unless someone checks the screens, they wont have a clue where my train is going unless they check the screens.
    I was doing a norwich to london train, at stratford they brought us in on platform 10(DM) as opposed to Plt9(UM) and although the screens said set down only, and the train came from the opposite direction, a good few passangers for colchester, ipswich and norwich still jumped on and ended up in london, lol
     
  26. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,260
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    But with a ticket that is valid?! (see below) Do you believe that conforms with PF legislation, and do you admit issuing invalid tickets? ;)
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Ah, so you admit that it is correct to excess to a ticket from Chelmsford. I'm sure you'd not issue an invalid ticket, so a ticket that is from Chelmsford is valid, so an ALR is! :)
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Yes but the 'punishment' is to be issued with a ticket valid from the previous stop!
     
  27. David

    David Established Member

    Messages:
    5,111
    Joined:
    9 Jul 2005
    Location:
    Scunthorpe
    I'm just interested to know why Yorkie is insisting the you are allowed to board a set down only service with a ALR.

    As far as I'm aware, if your caught doing so, your treated as though you don't have a valid ticket, and therefore have to buy 1 from the previous valid station.
     
  28. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,260
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    An ALR is valid from the previous station.

    RPIs have stated that if anyone boards with a ticket that is not valid from the previous station, they would issue one. Therefore a ticket that is valid from the previous station is valid.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Imagine the scene in court...

    "Joe Bloggs stands here accused of refusing to pay a fare after boarding a train with an invalid valid ticket. Your honour, please find him guilty of this offence of failing to pay the correct fare"

    "What fare did Joe Bloggs pay?"

    "He only paid £429 for the ticket which he used from Stratford to London"

    "And what is the correct fare?"

    "Only a ticket that is valid from Chelmsford would be valid"

    "Is the £429 ticket not valid from Chelmsford?"

    "Yes, but not from Stratford"

    "But you want to charge him the fare from Chelmsford?"

    "Yes"

    "But his ticket is valid from Chelmsford?"

    "Look, your honour, we are the rail industry. We make our rules up. We trust it never goes to court. Just do what we say. The customer is always wrong. Surely you agree, your honour?"

    I can picture the scene now :lol:
     
  29. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    You cannot join a train that is booked to set down only. Full stop.

    You are therefore travelling outside of the validity of THAT ticket because your journey is B to A not C to A.

    In Law, with a season or similar ticket, your contract is renewed each time you enter the station. The Contract is for the journey you are undertaking. You are NOT undertaking a journey C to A you are making a journey B to A. The train does not stop at B in law as it does not available for passengers to travel from B. I think the concept is fairly simple.

    As previously stated to you an ALR is NOT treated as a fiull fare ticket substitute, because it is NOT a full fare ticket. It is a ticket issued at a reduced rate and in my time in commercial it and its equivalents were treated as std day singles/returns for the purposes of excess payment.

    Until a Revenue Protection professional gives his/her opiniuoj then the rest of us just speculate, however both myself and SqUaShIe P are both saying the same things, proof I suspect that our views are not untowards.
     
  30. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,260
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    You can board a set down only train - people do. Sometimes rail staff even say you can. SqUaShIe P has confirmed this is the case at Shenfield. If a member of staff has not given permission, you may be charged the fare from the previous (non-set down) stop.

    SqUaShIe P confirmed that a ticket from Chelmsford to London is valid for boarding at Stratford, as SqUaShIe P has issued such a ticket to someone who boarded at Stratford. I'm sure SqUaShIe P would not issue an invalid ticket.
     
  31. 90019

    90019 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,598
    Joined:
    29 May 2008
    Location:
    Edinburgh/Leeds
    Then why is it a set down only train?

    Surely by definition, because it is a set down only train, it can only set down passengers, and not pick them up.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page