Set Down only stops with an ALR?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by MCR247, 4 Dec 2009.

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  1. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    I very much doubt the situation of boarding a set-down only service has been tested in court, and doubt it ever would be because it would never get that far.

    'Goodwill gestures' are the classic way of getting out of such a situation without admitting guilt (or an error) and I bet they would do this in 100% of cases.

    I'm happy to be proved wrong with some evidence of a successful prosecution in court for someone who boarded a train despite there being a sign somewhere saying 'please do not board this train' and nothing else.
     
  2. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I still find it difficult to accept that an ALR isn't considered valid for Chelmsford-Liverpool yet a Chelmsford-Liverpool St is, especially when ATOC say it is considered valid, and someone has actually tested these journeys with an ALR and it has been accepted.

    It's not that we are making rules up. On the contrary, we are citing the rules, checking with ATOC, etc. It is others who make the rules up.

    It is the case that they can stop you boarding a set-down only train, but it is often impractical and if you do board such a train then a ticket from the set-down only station to the next station is not valid. I accept that. A ticket that is valid from the previous station is valid and can be issued if not already held.
     
  3. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    It has been tested in Court as I have personally been involved in TTI sweeps. We gave them the opportunity to pay the single fare from last calling point or face Prosecution. Those who had been done before were automatically cautioned and Prosecuted.

    Go check out the Magistrates Courts at Euston in about 1975/76.

    I would prefer if you stopped saying there are no precedents based upon your uninformed opinion when there clearly are.

    Similarly we Prosecuted people avoiding the correct fare under Section 5 by buying cheaper tickets further out and starting short. Indeed we put plain clothes surveiilance on a number and built up our evidence.

    However that is fact and this part of the Forum appears to live on personal beliefs, so no doubt it will be ignored or dismissed.

    It is a waste of my time, principally, to continue a debate which is going around in circles. I have given best advice on the basis of more years experience than I care to admit to these days. I really cannot be bothered to continue a debate with those who view their opinions as fact and incontravertible.

    Good night
     
  4. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    OK, some questions about that 1975 case.
    1) Did the NCoC allow starting short in 1975?
    2) If you can possibly reveal, what were the stations involved and what was the ticket involved?
    3) Did the ticket conditions prohibit starting short, or breaking your journey (and if it prohibited break of journey, what was break of journey defined as in 1975)?

    If you can answer them I would appreciate it. I suspect the rules may have changed.
     
  5. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Lots have things have changed, including new rules that place more responsibilities on big businesses over the 'smaller' people.

    I'd like to see it tested in a court a bit more recently than the 1970s, if indeed this was a specific example of someone boarding a set-down only train.
     
  6. Skip 10

    Skip 10 Member

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    Its a Chiltern ticket on a non Chiltern service, Im not with my advantix at the moment so cant compare the prices.

    The irony.....
     
  7. gordonthemoron

    gordonthemoron Established Member

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    When I worked for BR in the 80's, staff duty travel was via temporary all regions passes. If you wanted to go Euston-Watford, you'd get on an InterCity at Euston which was pick-up only at Watford, never had any problems.
     
  8. djw1981

    djw1981 Established Member

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    Ok, test it!

    Buy an ALR board a set down only service, refuse goodwill and demand to be taken to court.
     
  9. SWT Driver

    SWT Driver Member

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    Now for my 2p's worth.

    We've been told that we are not allowed to join a service which is SD or alight from a service which is marked PU, if booked pass.

    So explain that one then. If it applies to staff, it most certainly applies to passengers.
     
  10. theblackwatch

    theblackwatch Emeritus Moderator

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    That was deliberate to make a point. If its ok for some, why not for me?
     
  11. Capybara

    Capybara Member

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    This is a fascinating thread. Two points. Point one, if someone (an ordinary member of the public, not necessarily someone who knows about these things) happens to be waiting on a platform - Clapham Junction, say - and a train pulls in to the Waterloo-bound platform, how will they know that it is set-down only? Trains pass through Clapham Junction every few minutes and you just hop on the first one that comes along if you are changing there. In such circumstances, even if it is not technically allowed to get on, would it not be very harsh to charge the passenger concerned?

    Secondly, and in relation to another thread, should not the efforts of the train companies be better directed at catching fare-dodgers rather than those who have paid a fare but, inadvertently or not, found themselves making a short journey on a train which they might technically be not allowed to travel on?
     
  12. Helvellyn

    Helvellyn Established Member

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    I believe trains that stop at Platform 7, which is the Up Passenger Loop and the platform set-down only trains use, are not advertised in the booking halls, subway or on the overbridge. Trains to Waterloo are advertised from platforms 3, 4 and 10.
     
  13. 313103

    313103 Established Member

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    Look why dont we put this to bed and and admit Yorkie is RIGHT in everything he says and does.

    The question is why would you want to get on a train at Stratford that is for set down only, when there are numerous others that stop there some at the same time, that logic i do not understand.
     
  14. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    This isn't the issue in hand here. As far as I can see nobody is advocating boarding a train that stops to set-down, the question here is what is the best course of action if someone has done so.
     
  15. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    I spoke to ATOC about this today.

    Firstly they were unaware that there were still set down and pick up only stops (:roll::roll::roll:).

    That said, the response was quite clear and I quote verbatim " If the train is stopping to set down then passengers are not permitted to join the train, the same applies in reverse in the case of a pick up only stop. The NCoC are quite clear as to how an excess fare is raised."

    So there you have it. Not allowed.
     
  16. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Yes, we already knew that! The issue at hand though is whether a ticket valid from the previous stop is valid for joining.
     
  17. SWT Driver

    SWT Driver Member

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    Just to reiterate the point.

    Staff Restrictions

    Please note the first bullet pointed paragraph.
     
  18. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    No of course it is not. THAT was the point of the question being raised. NO passengers are permitted to join. Ticket or no ticket. That is the response from ATOC.
     
  19. theblackwatch

    theblackwatch Emeritus Moderator

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    I thought the question was more to do with what happens if you do, not whether you are permitted to or not. You are not permitted to drive or ride a bicycle in a 30mph limit at 35mph - it doesn't mean that nobody does!
     
  20. dan_atki

    dan_atki Established Member

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    As far as I'm aware there are no SWT services that set down only at Clapham Junction. Departures to Waterloo are shown on the boards and announced on platform 7.

    There are trains that pick up only from Clapham on platform 9. The boards at Waterloo do not say the train is stopping at Clapham nor do any announcements either on the station or train.

    The issue with lack of an announcement on train was brought up in an online webchat by somebody who felt inconvenienced that if they've got a standing position by a door on a busy train they then have to unexpectedly move to allow more people on at a station they didn't think the service was calling at. Occasionally, there is now an announcement made by the guard to say the train is picking up at Clapham.
     
  21. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    Their answer was that there is an excess charge to be raised back to the last stopping point irrespective of ticket held. As it was explained to me, the ticket boarded with would not be valid
     
  22. dan_atki

    dan_atki Established Member

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    I can understand them saying that but it's still rather bizarre as I mentioned in my earlier post (#48).
     
  23. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Yes it applies. You may be charged the fare from the previous station on a set-down only, or charged the fare to the next station on a pick up only. e.g. you board a Euston to Glasgow train with a staff season valid to Watford, the next stop is Crewe, but it calls at Watford to pick up. You could be charged to Crewe as your ticket is only valid to Watford and not valid to Crewe.

    WSMR permit staff to do Marylebone-Banbury, and I'm sure most TOCs allow staff to use PU/SD stations, as it's considered one of the perks for being staff. (Not saying that's right or wrong but it's just generally the done thing).
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    They could be charged from the previous stop, e.g Woking, in theory. In reality they wouldn't be. But in theory they could.
    Agreed, but some don't agree and the rules allow them to do it.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Hehe, the person you spoke to at ATOC is the first line. You need to have the right contacts to get sense out of them! (I personally don't).

    The fact they do not know it exists does rather suggest that what they say on the subject can't be taken to be gospel. However, perhaps unusually for ATOC, they are quite right to say an excess can be charged. Of course, with an ALR the excess is zero. But a ticket from Stratford to London could be excessed. ATOC are right. It would be harsh but it could, technically be done.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    You can't excess an ALR, as it's valid.

    I agree a Stratford-London (or similar) ticket could be excessed from Chelmsford. This is because a valid ticket for that service is Chelmsford-London, therefore a Chelmsford-London excess can be issued. If such a ticket is already held then it cannot be charged again. It will hardly ever be the case that such a ticket is already held - usually only in the case of rovers. It is not in the interests of passengers to pay for Chelmsford-London to do Stratford-London, or pay for London-Crewe to do London-Watford Jn.
     
  24. theblackwatch

    theblackwatch Emeritus Moderator

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    I'm amazed they managed to find an answer relating to something they didn't know existed!
     
  25. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    Trust that I spoke to the engine driver not the oily rag, I have after all been in the Industry a very long time and worked with, and know most of the people who inhabit the senior ranks.

    The people who know me outside of here, but who post here will confirm that.


    I am not. Joining a Set down is no different to joining a stopping out of course without permission for excess fare purposes. Neither are available for use.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    If the train does not stop then the excess fare rules are that you are treated as not holding a ticket I believe, on the basis that the train is not available for you to use for that journey.

    Hopefully Helvellyn will confirm one way or another the Revenue Protection view.
     
    Last edited: 7 Dec 2009
  26. Helvellyn

    Helvellyn Established Member

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    Yes, they are shown on the CIS screens on platform 7, and they are announced there, but that is the only place on Clapham Junction where they are displayed/announced. I didn't say they were set down only, but they aren't advertised off platform 7. You get the odd person who boards for Waterloo, who is aware of how it works - just like you get the odd person who boards at Waterloo and gets off at Clapham on a pick-up only train.
     
  27. dan_atki

    dan_atki Established Member

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    You said the trains use the 'platform set-down only trains use' which is suggestive you are saying they are. Besides, if you can find a train in the SWT public timetable that is set down only at Clapham then please do enlighten me :).

    Please can you clarify what you mean here? Are you suggesting that the trains are really set down only but not shown on the boards nor in the timetable as such? Such an idea is absurd.

    For as long as an 's' does not appear next to the time in the timetable and they are displayed on the board then I shall continue to use these services. I doubt such a move will occur, though, given that there are 458s leaving platforms 3 and 4 fast for Waterloo as well.
     
  28. Helvellyn

    Helvellyn Established Member

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    Sorry, mixed meanings. To SWT staff Platform 7 is a set-down platform. You can, and are, dispatched away early from this platform because it is better to keep the Mainline services moving. Because trains on the Up Fast have to go into Platform 7, time is lost. They do this because the curve works against the train on Platform 8.


    Yes, they are in effect set down only. And as I said, they are only advertised on platform 7, and not elsewhere on Clapham station (unless engineering work has closed other lines). So no 's' in the timetable, but to all intents and purposes they are set down only.
     
  29. dan_atki

    dan_atki Established Member

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    That would make sense as to the early departures then - I always assumed it was due to the frequent nature of the service why they leave early. A similar thing happens at London Bridge with Charing Cross services being given the CD and RA over a minute before the booked time. (Interestingly enough the time isn't on the board but is announced...).

    So are you saying the SD only is a staff only thing? In which case, it is silly. A train is either SD only to everyone or no-one and indeed I could make a complaint that trains are leaving platform 7 long before the 30 seconds before booked departure time.

    If 'to all intents and purposes they are set down only' is it then wrong for a customer to board such a service?
     
  30. Helvellyn

    Helvellyn Established Member

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    If you made a complaint the response would likely be along the lines that the trains are not advertised at Clapham (except on platform 7), and that regular services that are advertised across the station depart from platforms 3/4 and 10.

    It's not wrong to board, but as you've obviously experienced they can depart early. They are semi-fast and fast trains, and it'd make more sense if they were 's' in the timetable. Not sure why they aren't.
     
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