Setting off without a guard

[Spartacus]

Some of our units lack toilets and it’s common practice for drivers to jump onto mainline units at adjacent platform when changing ends to use the facilities.

More than once this has resulted in drivers coming out of the loo to realise the train has departed with them still aboard...

Think it was a Skipton man who found his 333’s loo out of service and decided to go on the one next to him, which set of for I think Ilkley with him still sat down....!

 

[cin88]

I've heard of a few occasions where there's been a member of traincrew caught out doing an assist on the platform and been left behind, similar with station staff ending up on a train that's departed while doing an assist.

That's actually happened to me, got carried 15 minutes up the line. The dispatchers at my location seem to delight in dispatching trains with assistcance staff still on board. One of the professional assist staff (I only do assists in extremely busy periods) got themselves sent to the furthest possible "next stop" a few weeks ago. We didn't see them again for about 2 hours

 

[bussnapperwm]

That's actually happened to me, got carried 15 minutes up the line. The dispatchers at my location seem to delight in dispatching trains with assistcance staff still on board. One of the professional assist staff (I only do assists in extremely busy periods) got themselves sent to the furthest possible "next stop" a few weeks ago. We didn't see them again for about 2 hours

I think the most awkward case would be on a Reddish South/Denton service.

No train back to Stockport for a week!

 

[mark-h]

The dispatchers at my location seem to delight in dispatching trains with assistcance staff still on board.

Are there any procedures to ensure that the train does not move until station based staff are off the train?

 

[pompeyfan]

Are there any procedures to ensure that the train does not move until station based staff are off the train?

Not that I’m aware of, the simple way of doing so would be for the platform staff to take control of a local door, but trains don’t like more than one key on.

 

[pdeaves]

Not that I’m aware of, the simple way of doing so would be for the platform staff to take control of a local door, but trains don’t like more than one key on.

Maintenance people use 'not to be moved' boards. Could platform people use a functionally identical system?

 

[Dieseldriver]

I've seen the opposite happen a couple of years back on an Intercity operator that can be found across the UK...

Train arrived at a major Interchange, where the Train Manager was to be relieved. Anyway, it arrived full of Football Fans going to an away game in this location, and the footy fans had left a huge mess inside the train which smelt like a Brewery and not a nice one! So as it was booked to sit here for a little while, and the relief TM hadn't made an appearance yet, the TM who worked it in, decided to help the cleaners clear up the mess left by the Football Fans.

A few minutes later, the relief TM had appeared, made a quick pre-departure announcement and prepared for departure from this station. Could hear whistles being blown on the platform, and the doors beginning to close. Suddenly there was this announcement...it was made by the TM who worked it in
"EXCUSE ME...TRAIN MANAGER, PLEASE DO NOT DISPATCH THE TRAIN, THE PREVIOUS TM IS STILL ONBOARD. PLEASE DO NOT DISPATCH THE TRAIN, I NEED TO GET OFF!!!"

To no avail. I could hear "2" on the buzzer, and the driver's reply...and sure enough, we started to move! The other TM was absolutely fuming...he'd not only been locked inside the train, he'd left his gear on the bench on the platform, and...he had to be taken at least 20 miles beyond where he was getting off!

Surprised he didn't just pull a passcom to be honest.

 

[father_jack]

That's actually happened to me, got carried 15 minutes up the line. The dispatchers at my location seem to delight in dispatching trains with assistcance staff still on board. One of the professional assist staff (I only do assists in extremely busy periods) got themselves sent to the furthest possible "next stop" a few weeks ago. We didn't see them again for about 2 hours

We had a bloke like that years ago at Temple Meads. There was a busy 1109 Wales and Borders to Manchester via Maindee east, first stop Abergavenny, luggage stacked up in the vestibules which he accidentally/on purpose got locked on.

However the panel heard the radio chatter surrounding the situation and scuppered the cunning plan by stopping the train at Filton and calling the driver on the NRN !!!

 

[cin88]

Are there any procedures to ensure that the train does not move until station based staff are off the train?

Basically no. If you've got time to do so you'll let the dispatcher know so they know to wait for you to get back off before letting the train go. Most of the over carries i've seen have been due to the assist being at the opposite end of the train to the dispatcher on a busy service, they just don't know they're there until it's too late.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Basically no. If you've got time to do so you'll let the dispatcher know so they know to wait for you to get back off before letting the train go. Most of the over carries i've seen have been due to the assist being at the opposite end of the train to the dispatcher on a busy service, they just don't know they're there until it's too late.

I’ve seen the assist take the dispatch batton, that way it can’t go in error, till they’re off and given the batton back.

 

[greatkingrat]

That's actually happened to me, got carried 15 minutes up the line. The dispatchers at my location seem to delight in dispatching trains with assistcance staff still on board. One of the professional assist staff (I only do assists in extremely busy periods) got themselves sent to the furthest possible "next stop" a few weeks ago. We didn't see them again for about 2 hours

Sounds like a cunning plan to get out of doing any work for 2 hours!

 

[theageofthetra]

I still don't understand why the guard doesn't just contact the driver via the cab to cab or panel to let them know they are on board?

 

[underbank]

A few months ago one of the class 37 sets on the Furness/Cumbria coast line set off from Lancaster without a guard.

 

[PennineSuperb]

Northern recently had a issue at Burley in Wharfedale.
On a 333 for the Guard to open the doors the Driver has to put the direction selector into neutral when the train comes to a stand. The Guard carried out station duties and then left his/her local door in the open position to ask some youths to move away. There was a train stood in the adjacent platform, Driver hears the ready to start signal on the bell from that unit and puts the direction selector into Forward, which subsequently closed the Guards local door.
Train arrives at the next station, no Guard, Drivers not allowed to open doors so train waits.

 

[theironroad]

Northern recently had a issue at Burley in Wharfedale.
On a 333 for the Guard to open the doors the Driver has to put the direction selector into neutral when the train comes to a stand. The Guard carried out station duties and then left his/her local door in the open position to ask some youths to move away. There was a train stood in the adjacent platform, Driver hears the ready to start signal on the bell from that unit and puts the direction selector into Forward, which subsequently closed the Guards local door.
Train arrives at the next station, no Guard, Drivers not allowed to open doors so train waits.

Putting the selector into forward and the local door c!oses just sounds odd tbh.

 

[pompeyfan]

Northern recently had a issue at Burley in Wharfedale.
On a 333 for the Guard to open the doors the Driver has to put the direction selector into neutral when the train comes to a stand. The Guard carried out station duties and then left his/her local door in the open position to ask some youths to move away. There was a train stood in the adjacent platform, Driver hears the ready to start signal on the bell from that unit and puts the direction selector into Forward, which subsequently closed the Guards local door.
Train arrives at the next station, no Guard, Drivers not allowed to open doors so train waits.

That sounds like a really poorly designed set up. A local door is there so that the guard can hold the train indefinitely. The fact the local door can be over ridden is really bad.

 

[theironroad]

Maintenance people use 'not to be moved' boards. Could platform people use a functionally identical system?

That could be a workable idea, the newer boards use suction cups to stick to the side of the train so are quite easy to use. They might need a modified version as the newer ones, with batteries and lights are quite bulky and not very user friendly for a member of station staff to haul around when they are just helping someone into their seat and stowing their luggage, but could work well especially at busier platforms where it's not always possible to see if the assisting staff have alighted.

 

[Highlandspring]

You’d just change the nature of the problem to trains departing with Not To Be Moved boards attached. In any case Not To Be Moved boards are used to indicate situations where it’s unsafe to move a train for whatever reason. Passenger assistance staff being overcarried is an inconvenient situation but not an unsafe one, so use of Not To Be Moved boards is inappropriate and waters down the impact of the boards where they are really needed. That’s before you get into the realms of non-safety critical trained platform staff mistakenly removing a Not To Be Moved board which has been legitimately applied because a fitter is working underneath a train....

 

[Bromley boy]

You’d just change the nature of the problem to trains departing with Not To Be Moved boards attached. In any case Not To Be Moved boards are used to indicate situations where it’s unsafe to move a train for whatever reason. Passenger assistance staff being overcarried is an inconvenient situation but not an unsafe one, so use of Not To Be Moved boards is inappropriate and waters down the impact of the boards where they are really needed. That’s before you get into the realms of non-safety critical trained platform staff mistakenly removing a Not To Be Moved board which has been legitimately applied because a fitter is working underneath a train....

You beat me to it!

It would be a bad idea to dilute the meaning of NOT TO BE MOVED boards to avoid inconvenient (but not dangerous) situations.

 

[tsr]

There are already diluted versions of Not To Be Moved boards and it’s rare to hear about it causing a problem. I’ve seen various termini using boards with messages on them such as “Cleaners on board” and suchlike. It’s not necessarily practical for passenger assistance, though, as it’s all extra delay to attach and detach the boards in a suitable location, plus with the rollout of DOO in various places, the boards may not be easily seen with cameras/monitors.

Thameslink 700s have wheelchair ramps with a special bar at one end which blocks a sensor on the train door when the ramp is deployed. In turn, this prevents the door from closing and therefore prevents dispatch. I wonder if a standalone, non-ramp version could be created to attach to door sensors on modern stock, which could be placed adjacent to whatever assistance is being provided.

 

[Clip]

You beat me to it!

It would be a bad idea to dilute the meaning of NOT TO BE MOVED boards to avoid inconvenient (but not dangerous) situations.

I recall at least one incident where a train has left a terminus with one board still attached as it set off in passenger service

 

[spinba11]

Interesting about the extra bars on the 700 ramps, I’m not sure they actually cover the sensor but they definitely will obstruct the door if they close. Aren’t the sensors bypassed when the driver closes the doors?

 

[tsr]

Interesting about the extra bars on the 700 ramps, I’m not sure they actually cover the sensor but they definitely will obstruct the door if they close. Aren’t the sensors bypassed when the driver closes the doors?

They definitely cover the sensors. This also avoids the doors attempting to close on the ramp and thereby damaging the door mechanism.

The driver can close the doors but the point is that the door will not automatically close during station duties (before the Door Close button is actually pressed) if the ramp is in the way - so you can place it there to make it obvious that there is still somebody from the station team onboard the train and make it look like it’s still undergoing station duties.

Otherwise the driver can check the cameras, see all the doors have closed by themselves on the timer, and press the button to lock them, without anyone from the station having an opportunity to get off.

 

[spinba11]

Do the little ramps on the core stations block the sensor (given the extra bars aren’t angled up), I was thinking about a driver who closes the doors for whatever reason when the ramp is in place.

 

[_toommm_]

Do the little ramps on the core stations block the sensor (given the extra bars aren’t angled up), I was thinking about a driver who closes the doors for whatever reason when the ramp is in place.

Not to my knowledge, but of course the doors won't fully shut, meaning interlock won't be achieved and the driver won't be able to take power.

But why a driver would shut with a ramp in place is beyond me, unless there's extenuating circumstances as to why he can't see.

 

[tsr]

Do the little ramps on the core stations block the sensor (given the extra bars aren’t angled up), I was thinking about a driver who closes the doors for whatever reason when the ramp is in place.

Not to my knowledge, but of course the doors won't fully shut, meaning interlock won't be achieved and the driver won't be able to take power.

But why a driver would shut with a ramp in place is beyond me, unless there's extenuating circumstances as to why he can't see.

Please read the post I wrote half an hour ago. They do block the sensors. That’s part of what the raised bar is for. There are also other functions which disable the auto close at appropriate locations.

 

[_toommm_]

Please read the post I wrote half an hour ago. They do block the sensors. That’s what the raised bar is for.

The OP in this little reply-chain was referring to a specific type of ramp - I assumed (s)he wasn't asking about the ramp you'd already talked about as that wouldn't be necessary and would be repetitive.

 

[spinba11]

I’m on about the ramps at the core stations which are used only to bridge the gap as the platform is at the same height, I’ve experienced the doors being closed on me when boarding when the ramp is in place so it has happened.

 

[theironroad]

You’d just change the nature of the problem to trains departing with Not To Be Moved boards attached. In any case Not To Be Moved boards are used to indicate situations where it’s unsafe to move a train for whatever reason. Passenger assistance staff being overcarried is an inconvenient situation but not an unsafe one, so use of Not To Be Moved boards is inappropriate and waters down the impact of the boards where they are really needed. That’s before you get into the realms of non-safety critical trained platform staff mistakenly removing a Not To Be Moved board which has been legitimately applied because a fitter is working underneath a train....

The TOC I work for already use not to be moved boards for cleaners on board at some locations as well as fitters.

There's nothing to say that a train couldn't be dispatched with NTM boards on currently.

If trains are being dispatched and moved with any NTM board on, that says more about the training of those involved in the dispatch process.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That sounds like a really poorly designed set up. A local door is there so that the guard can hold the train indefinitely. The fact the local door can be over ridden is really bad.

Agreed. Also stupid that the driver could not evacuate the train via a single door in such a situation. Mind you, once the announcement was made I expect the egress was most probably used.