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Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by JMPRailwatcher, 23 Apr 2019.
We don't all go to Carlisle. Some of us have business in Appleby.
I was thinking of people who do the journey just for the journey, not people with a real need to travel.
But that is the problem. making a service good for people joy riding and people with a real need at the same time.
Ultimately, if they're all paying customers, what is the difference ?
For decades, we've prioritised the contribution of business travel to the economy, over and above leisure travel.
People making the journey 'just for the journey' are likely to stop off for lunch.
Actually there's the cathedral, castle, some good museums and some lovely parks in Carlisle. Easy to spend a day there.
Why would they need a cab camera then? One of the major selling points of the S&C is the view out of the window.
The present service isn't far off that, given the need to cater for the day-trip market and the Leeds peak traffic.
That's fine, but the gap. 10:50 to 13 something is too long.
2.5 hours. The 1319 and 1519 could be earlier but they provide an hourly service alternating with the Bentham line.
I agree, and if people can drag themselves away from the likes of Wetherspoons, Nando’s or McDonalds there are some superb independent cafes and restaurants. In fact in recent years Carlisle has become a great place to go for food, whether it’s a pizza from the award winning unit on the indoor market to the more formal David’s restaurant or in between the two at The Shabby Scholar to name but three.
I can’t see that the main issue is with people visiting Carlisle for leisure purposes. The large gap is late morning/lunchtime and then the trains are reasonably well spaced during the afternoon when people need to travel back.
It is far more of a problem for anyone wanting to use the line as part of a longer journey. For example anyone travelling from stations in Southern Scotland to Appleby, Skipton, Leeds or beyond, if they miss the 1049 departure from Carlisle have a wait of almost 3 hours until 1340. Similar situation at Leeds when travelling north if you miss the 1049 there is wait until 1318.
There would be a fair bit of logic in doing that all day rather than just early afternoon.
What you show here is how the various combinations of slow trains, long gaps between services and poor connections seriously impair potential growth.
The current S&C service is ok-ish (but not brilliant) for commuter traffic at each end of the S&C, and ok (but not brilliant) for Leeds/Bradford to Carlisle or intermediate stations. I suppose it's ok too for Carlisie & Appleby to south of Leeds like Barnsley (one change) because south of Leeds, most connecting services are at least 1 TPH. But for anyone from Leeds/Bradford to beyond Carlisle, it's very hit and miss at best, and potentially disastrous if relying on a connection late evening.
Granted, there can't be huge traffic flows like yours or eg Wakefield to Annan etc, but as it stands, such trips must be very off-putting for anyone other than a dedicated rail user.
I can't see there being any chance of a regular 1 TP2H semi-fast service over the line as sucggested up thread, but if you could get one each way in the peak hours (say, around 08.47 and 17.47 ex Leeds, and 07.50 and 17.30 ex Carlisle, stopping only Settle, Appleby and maybe Kirkby Stephen or Langwathby) to give a 2 hr 30 min end-to-end schedule, it would be a start to tempting more long-distance travellers while also helping the peak hour services to boot.
If you could get the line speed up to 75 mph, those timings could be cut to 2 hr 10-15 mins at a guess, and you really would be starting to get more competitive on times too. But I guess Northern have got more pressing needs.
Maybe Northern needs sectorising. a separate business for the long routes, like leeds-carlisle/lancaster, newcastle -carlisle and maybe leeds -blackpool vis copy pit. give them the focused management they need. dedicated crews and trains too.
Realistically, the recent additions to the timetable have been a long time coming (2 decades?) so I doubt much more is going to happen until there has been time to monitor the affects from these new services.
The current timetable must surely be the best service the line has ever had? Okay, it doesn’t have a daily London, Nottingham or Glasgow direct service anymore but in our DMU short times, we ought to be pleased with the recent additions.
As enthusiasts we will always clamour for more trains, to more places but if we take off our rose tinted spectacles, the current timetable is a pretty good service for a line that covers 72 miles without serving a large population centre.
That’s basically Northern Connect, which is coming.
The profitable services have already been given to TP.
I’m not sure what benefit another operation on the same patch would achieve. It didn’t seem to work too well with ATN/FNW.
Advance warning of what's coming next?
sells tickets. if video 12 can sell cab videos of the tube, I would have thought people would have like that.
Italian Frecciarossa units have a camera mounted in the nose that is connected to an in-carriage monitor. However, for sad but practical reasons, it only broadcasts from the rear cab not the front.
I also remember travelling on a BMI aircraft on a transatlantic flight which was similarly equipped, which wasn’t such a great idea when it showed the pilot miss the runway in thick fog at Manchester Airport, we then went back round for another go...
What, like someone jumping in front of the train? Why do the passengers need advance warning?
They already do sell cab videos of the S&C. You really believe that people want to buy tickets to watch a live stream of the front of a train?
just me then?
Might well be!
On the subject of S&C views, when I travelled on it recently, it was noticable how the old 158 seats, being a bit shorter, enabled a better panoramic view out of the windows than the new ones (as well as being a more comfortable design).
Now that’s something Northern can easily sort out.
Bus-seated 142’s with their big windows.
Or just stop ripping out the old 158 seats.
Spend the money saved on the works outing instead (go on - you guys deserve it).
Departure screens have gone in at Settle - although as of yesterday Ribblehead and Horton remained without (I don't know if they will be added) but they were switched off.
Just an update from a previous request, I was at Langwathby station today and the 2H89 11.18 to Leeds took on 12 passengers on a two car train. In the opposite direction the 1M53 to Carlisle took just 2 passengers on a three car train. This is the first time I have seen passengers get on this train as it has only begun stopping at Langwathby since the May timetable change, so numbers may be low until more realise it is now a stopper.
What changed in May? Did it just have the stations between Appleby and Carlisle inserted?
Yes, as simple as that.
I wouldn't consider an east-west geographical separation, but splitting services into intercity, regional, commuter and rural networks is a pretty common practice in lots of countries. No reason why it wouldn't work in the north. Microfranchises similar to Merseyrail in each of the northern conurbations would work pretty well.
So in the context of the S&C there could be one (urban) operator for the Aire Valley electrics, one (Regional) for Leeds-Carlisle and one (rural) for Leeds-Lancaster? What would the advantages be?