Settle & Carlisle Line - Past, Present & Future

[underbank]

Build it and they will come?

Works the other way too. At the moment there is the young "brain drain" away from rural areas such as the towns/villages along the S&C line. They can't get decent jobs within reasonable travel, so they move to the cities. It's massively damaging to the rural communities. With a decent railway link to Carlisle and Leeds, it would open up the possibility of commuting from those rural areas into the nearest major cities for the decent jobs. If more people stayed, there'd be the scope for more housing and rural amenities being viable such as shops, pubs, schools etc. It should be a topic for cross-industry talks, not just a railway issue, it's part of a much bigger scope project to save and grow the rural communities.

 

[deltic08]

The millions that were spent were purely focused on increasing the capacity of the line to carry heavy freight. To re-signal the line to higher linespeeds would likely have added significant additional costs onto a project that was not concerned with speed.

Double headed class 50s hauling WCML diversions during electrification in the 1970s were regularly running at 90mph, and above in places, on manual semaphore signalling. Not much has changed in 40 years with only introduction of a few colour light signals to break up the long blocks where signal boxes have been closed, abolished or burned down. Howe and Cos box is the fringe box with Carlisle power box so from there into Carlisle, signals may be too close for 90mph, but it is only a few miles where trains would be at a lower speed accelerating from or slowing down for Carlisle anyway.

 

[DarloRich]

Double headed class 50s hauling WCML diversions during electrification in the 1970s were regularly running at 90mph, and above in places, on manual semaphore signalling. Not much has changed in 40 years with only introduction of a few colour light signals to break up the long blocks where signal boxes have been closed, abolished or burned down. Howe and Cos box is the fringe box with Carlisle power box so from there into Carlisle, signals may be too close for 90mph, but it is only a few miles where trains would be at a lower speed accelerating from or slowing down for Carlisle anyway.

of course they were. That was, of course, a different time when rules were ever so slightly less stringent........................

 

[yoyothehobo]

IF you were theoretically to allow 90 on the line what benefit would this have to the stoppers on the line? I could imagine that there are quite a few places where it would be impossible to get close to 90 before slowing down again.

Also if you are running things for tourism and sightseeing, no one is going to want to fly through the landscape at 90 seeing a blur out the window.

 

[Esker-pades]

IF you were theoretically to allow 90 on the line what benefit would this have to the stoppers on the line? I could imagine that there are quite a few places where it would be impossible to get close to 90 before slowing down again.

Also if you are running things for tourism and sightseeing, no one is going to want to fly through the landscape at 90 seeing a blur out the window.

The benefit, surely, would be to those trains using the S&C as a through line (such as the proposed Leeds to Glasgow services).
Also, the distances between stops can be fairly sizeable.

Spoiler: Distances between stations

Carlisle
9m75c
Armathwaite
5m37c
Lazonby & Kirkoswold
4m27c
Langwathby
11m1c
Appleby
10m55c
Kirkby Stephen
9m74c
Garsdale
3m21c
Dent
6m12c
Ribblehead
4m57c
Horton-in-Ribblesdale
6m3c
Settle

 

[The Planner]

Start factoring in gradient and traction type and you still won't get much running over 75 on a stopper (Ive seen the initial work that was done). Those through services would have to be worth a bomb to make it stack up.

 

[30907]

Works the other way too. At the moment there is the young "brain drain" away from rural areas such as the towns/villages along the S&C line. They can't get decent jobs within reasonable travel, so they move to the cities. It's massively damaging to the rural communities. With a decent railway link to Carlisle and Leeds, it would open up the possibility of commuting from those rural areas into the nearest major cities for the decent jobs. If more people stayed, there'd be the scope for more housing and rural amenities being viable such as shops, pubs, schools etc. It should be a topic for cross-industry talks, not just a railway issue, it's part of a much bigger scope project to save and grow the rural communities.

I was under the impression that lack of affordable housing was the factor most usually quoted, certainly for North Yorkshire?
I don't know the situation North of Ais Gill well enough to comment, so I will stick to the Yorkshire end. There's been significant new housing at Gargrave Hellifield and Settle, and IIRC a bit at Long Preston, all of which have had Leeds commuter services for many years and a significant improvement overall last year.
Beyond that, Horton is tiny, Ribblehead Dent and Garsdale are in the middle of nowhere. Similarly on the Bentham line, Giggleswick is well away from the village and Clapham even worse. Bentham is Lancaster commuter-belt and again is growing a bit; as I mentioned upthread it needs a morning westbound train.

I think Ken H and at least one other member lives somewhere up there?

 

[Roast Veg]

Start factoring in gradient and traction type and you still won't get much running over 75 on a stopper (Ive seen the initial work that was done). Those through services would have to be worth a bomb to make it stack up.

That's particularly disappointing. Do you know roughly how many minutes might be saved even with all the stops if it was raised to 75mph? If it became the preferred route from Yorkshire and the East Midlands to Glasgow then I think there'd be scope for more services during the day.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Double headed class 50s hauling WCML diversions during electrification in the 1970s were regularly running at 90mph, and above in places, on manual semaphore signalling. Not much has changed in 40 years with only introduction of a few colour light signals to break up the long blocks where signal boxes have been closed, abolished or burned down. Howe and Cos box is the fringe box with Carlisle power box so from there into Carlisle, signals may be too close for 90mph, but it is only a few miles where trains would be at a lower speed accelerating from or slowing down for Carlisle anyway.

Presumably with double block working , where authorized. (special bell codes would have been used - I think 4-4-4)

 

[43074]

That's particularly disappointing. Do you know roughly how many minutes might be saved even with all the stops if it was raised to 75mph? If it became the preferred route from Yorkshire and the East Midlands to Glasgow then I think there'd be scope for more services during the day.

I'm sceptical this East Midlands/West Yorkshire to Glasgow market is particularly big in the first place, the 2-hourly XC service is just fine. If there were more places of significance between Skipton and Carlisle then maybe more trains could be justified, but there aren't... A 2-hourly clockface timetable with good connections at Carlisle for Scotland would be fine and would improve it's competitive situation compared to now at least, but it probably wouldn't need any more trains than that for a long time.

 

[backontrack]

Beyond that, Horton is tiny, Ribblehead Dent and Garsdale are in the middle of nowhere.

Garsdale serves Hawes, too; some trains connect with buses to the town.

 

[Ken H]

This is local to me so...

1 The Sunday service is dire. This is peak tourist day and they run less trains. And the 580 Skipton -Settle (and on to Lancaster) bus doesnt run on Sundays.
2. There is a lot of buses running in the dales on summer sundays. They are subsidised by various businesses. Incl northern rail(!). Google dalesbus for details and us times and routes. Maybe some local businesses could subsidise some Sunday services. Amazingly there are Wakefield - Hawes services. Also the first bus from Skipton towards Settle M-Sat is 08:50. The bus company dont keep any buses in Skipton.
3. Many Settle people railhead to Hellifield when going to W Yorkshire, so they have a better choice of return trains. and the car parking at Hellifield is free, unlike Settle.
4 Many trains are heavily loaded. many kids go to college in Skipton and use the train for their commute. Some Leeds - Settle short working would be useful. But that means going to Blea Moor to reverse. While Settle is tiny many visit (and seem to eat too much in the cafes and pubs) Settle is also the only S&C station anywhere near anything. Appleby and Kirkby Stephen are not handy for the towns at all.
5 Horton in Ribblesdale is a small place but on nice days in summer, especially weekends, its rammed with cars from people doing the Yorkshire 3 peaks. There has to be a role for the train bringing people rather then them having to drive. There are 3 no 11 buses from Settle a day, not sundays. First bus from settle 0915, last bus back 1435. If Borrowdale in the Lakes can support an hourly bus, then surely Horton could do better.

 

[Ken H]

Double headed class 50s hauling WCML diversions during electrification in the 1970s were regularly running at 90mph, and above in places, on manual semaphore signalling. Not much has changed in 40 years with only introduction of a few colour light signals to break up the long blocks where signal boxes have been closed, abolished or burned down. Howe and Cos box is the fringe box with Carlisle power box so from there into Carlisle, signals may be too close for 90mph, but it is only a few miles where trains would be at a lower speed accelerating from or slowing down for Carlisle anyway.

Many signalboxes were closed after the reprieve. Settle Station, Horton, Dent, Ais Gill. When the slow unfitted goods trains went, I think.
Then when they were developing for the coal trains they put a lit of intermediate blocks in. And I think all the distants are now colour lights. Only the homes and starters are semaphore now.
So its changed quite a bit.

 

[deltic08]

IF you were theoretically to allow 90 on the line what benefit would this have to the stoppers on the line? I could imagine that there are quite a few places where it would be impossible to get close to 90 before slowing down again.

Just upgrading linespeed on downhill sections such as from Ais Gill down to Kirkby Stephen or even Appleby to 75mph where all services would benefit even all station stoppers, would help reduce overall times between Leeds and Carlisle.

Presumably with double block working , where authorized. (special bell codes would have been used - I think 4-4-4)

Yes, that was probably how it was done. I had forgotten that double block working was possible. I only ever experienced double headed 50s and 90mph+ running on a Sunday when traffic was very light. If ever 90mph was allowed in future, is there anything to prevent operating that way again with current signalling?.

 

[deltic08]

Many signalboxes were closed after the reprieve. Settle Station, Horton, Dent, Ais Gill. When the slow unfitted goods trains went, I think.
Then when they were developing for the coal trains they put a lit of intermediate blocks in. And I think all the distants are now colour lights. Only the homes and starters are semaphore now.
So its changed quite a bit.

That is what I said. Almost the same except for closed 'boxes and introduction of intermediate block signals.

 

[Ken H]

Just upgrading linespeed on downhill sections such as from Ais Gill down to Kirkby Stephen or even Appleby to 75mph where all services would benefit even all station stoppers, would help reduce overall times between Leeds and Carlisle.

Yes, that was probably how it was done. I had forgotten that double block working was possible. I only ever experienced double headed 50s and 90mph+ running on a Sunday when traffic was very light. If ever 90mph was allowed in future, is there anything to prevent operating that way again with current signalling?.

i would start with Skipton-Settle Jct. It would benefit 2 services, the Carlisles, and the Lancasters, so probably more cost effective.

 

[cle]

Manchester has the country's most important airport outside of the South East too, at the end of the route, of course - plus a bigger economy, so more business travel, more football/events etc. Plus Lancaster (uni) and Preston (uni and transport hub) and the Lakes on the way down, versus a lot of beautiful, but empty countryside.

The two routes aren't comparable, and even Manchester is two-hourly to Glasgow, with the Edinburgh split.

 

[johnnychips]

Garsdale serves Hawes, too; some trains connect with buses to the town.

This is a minibus, in which I've never seen more than six people. Unfortunately, if you want a holiday in Dentdale or Swaledale or Wensleydale, you need a car. They made a real effort to improve the bus services about fifteen years ago or so, and it just wasn't taken up. Now the cuts are just making a holiday based on public transport impossible.

 

[Condor7]

long wait at Carlisle with no real facilities at that station and freezing,

I am slightly confused by this comment. What facilities are missing? There are decent waiting rooms at various platforms, and two free to use toilets which are always kept clean. A station cafeteria as well as various other ‘on platform’ concessions, there is also a very nice pub on the station, a flower shop and a newsagents. As far as being freezing is concerned, it’s only as cold as the weather, which is the same at any station with the exception of the few totally covered ones.

 

[yorksrob]

I have to say, I often travel between Yorkshire and Appleby, and there are always a large number of people who stay on when I alight at Appleby, or who are already on when I get on there.

Yes, the route is vital as a local link and for tourism, but it seems to me that it is already primarily used as a through route by passengers.

My priority for it would be extending the 2 carriage trains at the moment (and having the buffet trolley on all daytime services between Settle and Appleby )

 

[30907]

This is local to me so...

1 The Sunday service is dire. This is peak tourist day and they run less trains. And the 580 Skipton -Settle (and on to Lancaster) bus doesnt run on Sunday.
3. Many Settle people railhead to Hellifield when going to W Yorkshire, so they have a better choice of return trains. and the car parking at Hellifield is free, unlike Settle.

Sundays have changed! No trains before 0900 but then pretty much the same as weekdays (more if the Dalesrail ever runs!). And even the 580 runs 2 daily in summer.
Using Hellifield makes good sense - it has always had a better service and even more so now - but if significant numbers start using it car parking will be an issue.

 

[Class 170101]

Would need a wholesale change in the way Schedule 4 is dealt with, which would require universal agreement so unlikely to happen if the TOCs feel they would be worse off than now (and they can make some serious money from it)

Unless it was changed as part of franchise renewal maybe?

Agreed about turn up and go, but these are areas where bus cuts have probably bitten and people will plan their day around getting certain trains. More importantly, if you offer a decent 1tp2h fast service from Carlisle to Leeds with limited intermediate stops you've got a chance of moving people off Cross Country / TPE via York from the West Yorkshire area which must surely be a good thing; as well as providing Settle and Appleby with a decent service.

The problem with limited stop on a two hourly service would be that some stations might only get a train every four hours (or random stops) and that wouldn't help local flows to / from the line. Whats more important serviing the Leeds (or Bradford) to Carlisle / Glasgow market or flows from the line's stations to Leeds / Bradford and Carlisle centres?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Unless it was changed as part of franchise renewal maybe?



The problem with limited stop on a two hourly service would be that some stations might only get a train every four hours (or random stops) and that wouldn't help local flows to / from the line. Whats more important serviing the Leeds (or Bradford) to Carlisle / Glasgow market or flows from the line's stations to Leeds / Bradford and Carlisle centres?

I’d suggested two-hourly limited stop from Leeds to Carlisle (maybe further) and two-hourly Leeds to Lancaster; with two-hourly Skipton to Carlisle all stops.

 

[The Planner]

Unless it was changed as part of franchise renewal maybe?

You couldnt change it to be TOC specific, has to be all of them.

 

[Ken H]

I’d suggested two-hourly limited stop from Leeds to Carlisle (maybe further) and two-hourly Leeds to Lancaster; with two-hourly Skipton to Carlisle all stops.

probably speed it up by making some of the stations request stops. Ribblehead and Garsdale probably have quite a few trains that do no business there. (Maybe a railwayman who works the line could tell us)

 

[Ken H]

Sundays have changed! No trains before 0900 but then pretty much the same as weekdays (more if the Dalesrail ever runs!). And even the 580 runs 2 daily in summer.
Using Hellifield makes good sense - it has always had a better service and even more so now - but if significant numbers start using it car parking will be an issue.

Trains starting at 0900 is no good for walkers. if you are going to do the Yorkshire 3 peaks you need to be starting about 7. And most start that at Horton in Ribblesdale.

 

[70014IronDuke]

i would start with Skipton-Settle Jct. It would benefit 2 services, the Carlisles, and the Lancasters, so probably more cost effective.

It seems logical, except the Lancasters stop all stations, so I doubt they would be able to take any advantage of any increase in line speed. Appleby to Carlisle, OTOH, if you ran some non-stop in either direction ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trains starting at 0900 is no good for walkers. if you are going to do the Yorkshire 3 peaks you need to be starting about 7. And most start that at Horton in Ribblesdale.

Not everyone is doing all three, that's quite a challenge (about 24 miles). It's a nice place to go hillwalking generally.

 

[Ken H]

It seems logical, except the Lancasters stop all stations, so I doubt they would be able to take any advantage of any increase in line speed. Appleby to Carlisle, OTOH, if you ran some non-stop in either direction ...

its a fair way (about 6 miles) from Gargrave to Hellifield. Can a sprinter really not get above 60 along there?

 

[Ken H]

Not everyone is doing all three, that's quite a challenge (about 24 miles). It's a nice place to go hillwalking generally.

ask the guy who runs the caff. he makes a good living selling clock in cards to 3 peakers. and selling early breakfasts.
Go and stand by the T junction at Ribblehead at late morning. Streams of people passing.

Thats when someone isnt running a charity event.