Settle-Carlisle services stop at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley: why?

[70014IronDuke]

Apart from some early morning/late night services (which are all stations), the vast majority of S&C Leeds - Carlisle trains stop at Shipley, Bingley and Keighley.

Is this for pathing reasons - ie to ensure the DMUs can fit in with and not catch up the electric services - or do these stations actually have significant traffic to/from stations on the S&C? Otherwise, surely the stops could be omitted with savings of 6-7-8 minutes?

Historically, I'm not sure - did the S&C stopping trains serve these stations pre 1970? Te three Class 1 trains certainly didn't - although I seem to remember the Thames-Clyde stopped at Keighley on Sundays c 1970, at least in the up direction.

EDIT - I suppose there is a third possible reason - the electric services need the extra capacity provided by the S&C (and Morecambe) trains, but I suspect that is not normally the case, except for those early morning turns which are all stations.

 

[Ken H]

Apart from some early morning/late night services (which are all stations), the vast majority of S&C Leeds - Carlisle trains stop at Shipley, Bingley and Keighley.

Is this for pathing reasons - ie to ensure the DMUs can fit in with and not catch up the electric services - or do these stations actually have significant traffic to/from stations on the S&C? Otherwise, surely the stops could be omitted with savings of 6-7-8 minutes?

Historically, I'm not sure - did the S&C stopping trains serve these stations pre 1970? Te three Class 1 trains certainly didn't - although I seem to remember the Thames-Clyde stopped at Keighley on Sundays c 1970, at least in the up direction.

They stopped at Keighley, i think.

I think they should stop at Steeton and Silsden - its near Airedale Hospital which is where Settle and Skipton people go.

You are right about Bingley and Shipley. A change at Keighley or Skipton would do that

 

[cactustwirly]

Apart from some early morning/late night services (which are all stations), the vast majority of S&C Leeds - Carlisle trains stop at Shipley, Bingley and Keighley.

Is this for pathing reasons - ie to ensure the DMUs can fit in with and not catch up the electric services - or do these stations actually have significant traffic to/from stations on the S&C? Otherwise, surely the stops could be omitted with savings of 6-7-8 minutes?

Historically, I'm not sure - did the S&C stopping trains serve these stations pre 1970? Te three Class 1 trains certainly didn't - although I seem to remember the Thames-Clyde stopped at Keighley on Sundays c 1970, at least in the up direction.

EDIT - I suppose there is a third possible reason - the electric services need the extra capacity provided by the S&C (and Morecambe) trains, but I suspect that is not normally the case, except for those early morning turns which are all stations.

To provide through journey opportunities from the Aire valley towards Carlisle.

 

[jimm]

Apart from some early morning/late night services (which are all stations), the vast majority of S&C Leeds - Carlisle trains stop at Shipley, Bingley and Keighley.

Is this for pathing reasons - ie to ensure the DMUs can fit in with and not catch up the electric services - or do these stations actually have significant traffic to/from stations on the S&C? Otherwise, surely the stops could be omitted with savings of 6-7-8 minutes?

Historically, I'm not sure - did the S&C stopping trains serve these stations pre 1970? Te three Class 1 trains certainly didn't - although I seem to remember the Thames-Clyde stopped at Keighley on Sundays c 1970, at least in the up direction.

EDIT - I suppose there is a third possible reason - the electric services need the extra capacity provided by the S&C (and Morecambe) trains, but I suspect that is not normally the case, except for those early morning turns which are all stations.

Keighley calls are a longstanding feature of the timetable - some of the Glasgow-Leeds trains and overnight St Pancras services were calling in the 1960s ad presumably long before that, while in the case of Shipley stopping there was simply not possible before 1979 as there wasn't a platform on the north side of the triangle until then, even if calls would probably have been desirable in the context of providing connections for Bradford. There is certainly a demand locally for direct S&C trains without a change at Skipton.

You can see what was happening in 1962-63 here http://timetableworld.com/timetable_catalog.php?cat=4 where the London Midland region timetable is archived.

 

[route101]

When ive used the Leeds service at peak to Carlisle , lots of commuters use these as they are fast .

 

[Ken H]

When ive used the Leeds service at peak to Carlisle , lots of commuters use these as they are fast .

I think beefing up the leeds skipton service is the reason leeds lancaster isnt a skipton lancaster shuttle. if it were a shuttle we could have more train west of skipton.

 

[Ianno87]

It'll be a mix of pathing, plus providing some fast/semi-fast Leeds services from these busier stations to top up the stoppers.

 

[Ianigsy]

I seem to recall Bradford Council being involved in lobbying for Bingley calls on the long distance services- it also has to be remembered that there are strong historic connections between Bradford and the Morecambe area as it's where generations of Bradfordians used to holiday and retire. Stopping at Shipley allows passengers from Bradford to leave the city later than taking a Skipton stopper and board the train while there's still a reasonable chance of a seat.

 

[Ken H]

I seem to recall Bradford Council being involved in lobbying for Bingley calls on the long distance services- it also has to be remembered that there are strong historic connections between Bradford and the Morecambe area as it's where generations of Bradfordians used to holiday and retire. Stopping at Shipley allows passengers from Bradford to leave the city later than taking a Skipton stopper and board the train while there's still a reasonable chance of a seat.

in the 1970's some weekend leeds morecambe trains went into Forster Sq, and back out again. Some were quite long, I seem to remember. 6-8 cars???

 

[30907]

They stopped at Keighley, i think.

I think they should stop at Steeton and Silsden - its near Airedale Hospital which is where Settle and Skipton people go.

You are right about Bingley and Shipley. A change at Keighley or Skipton would do that

Demand for Shipley and Bingley is rather higher than for Steeton.
Airedale Hospital is, annoyingly, a mile's walk from the station, as there is no direct walking route, and in any case a change at Skipton would cover it

 

[quantinghome]

They are far far larger settlements then anything between Skipton and Carlisle. Playing Devil's Advocate, the question could be rephrased: Why is the Leeds to Skipton semi-fast service extended to Carlisle?

 

[yorksrob]

The Carlisle/Lancaster services do seem to pick up passengers travelling North Westwards at the larger intermediate stations.

 

[DanTrain]

Playing Devil's Advocate, the question could be rephrased: Why is the Leeds to Skipton semi-fast service extended to Carlisle?

1) To connect larger places such as Settle and Appleby to Leeds
2) It acts as a cut-price and more scenic route from Leeds (and Yorkshire/Midlands) to Carlisle and thus Scotland. Especially if you can get a fast up the S&C. These fast S&C trains arguably should run fast Skipton to Leeds... oh wait, round the circle we go .

 

[Class37.4]

As much as I love the S&C I do find the number of station stops exceedingly tedious, you could certainly knock Bingley out and maybe Shipley for some services, and given the improved Lancaster Service now axe the Gargrave and Long Preston stops that some services make, would also reduce the number of commuters using these trains especially on the evening trains out of Leeds

 

[Noddy]

You could maybe knock Bingley out but not Shipley. In the context of these services it serves Bradford, Baildon, Ilkley.

 

[thejuggler]

There are also probably legacy issues from Metro, now West Yorkshire Combined Authority agreements and required services - possibly even going back as far as the planning for electrification which would have been made on the back of expected growth in passenger numbers.

There's no doubt the Airedale line is on of the busiest in West Yorkshire. I was on a Skipton service yesterday afternoon from Leeds and it was standing room. I was also surprised how many people boarded at Shipley.

 

[IanD]

Keighley calls are a longstanding feature of the timetable - some of the Glasgow-Leeds trains and overnight St Pancras services were calling in the 1960s ad presumably long before that, while in the case of Shipley stopping there was simply not possible before 1979 as there wasn't a platform on the north side of the triangle until then, even if calls would probably have been desirable in the context of providing connections for Bradford. There is certainly a demand locally for direct S&C trains without a change at Skipton.

You can see what was happening in 1962-63 here http://timetableworld.com/timetable_catalog.php?cat=4 where the London Midland region timetable is archived.

Back in the day, certainly before the additional platform was built in 1979, I remember seeing loco hauled trains passing Shipley and reversing back in to (what I think is now) platform 5 - the platform used by Bradford-Keighley trains but these may have been the class 31 hauled Morecambe trains.

 

[55z]

Shipley stops for connections to/from Bradford. Bingley stops are made by request by Metro a number of years ago even after the increase in the Aire Valley services. I travelled on the 0748 Leeds to Carlisle recently and there was substantial commuter traffic especially to Skipton.

 

[Bantamzen]

You could maybe knock Bingley out but not Shipley. In the context of these services it serves Bradford, Baildon, Ilkley.

Indeed, plus some of the Carlisle-bound services arrive at Skipton just a few minutes behind Bradford FS arrivals. So missing out Shipley & Bingley would end up slowing them down anyway as they caught up with the stoppers. And now that the Leeds-Bradford FS call at both Kirkstall Forge & Apperley Bridge, they quickly run up behind these at Shipley.

 

[Ken H]

As much as I love the S&C I do find the number of station stops exceedingly tedious, you could certainly knock Bingley out and maybe Shipley for some services, and given the improved Lancaster Service now axe the Gargrave and Long Preston stops that some services make, would also reduce the number of commuters using these trains especially on the evening trains out of Leeds

Gargrave, Hellifield and Long Preston were never S&C stops. They were only served by Leeds-Morecambe trains. Dunno when thy got into S&C train timetables.

 

[30907]

Gargrave, Hellifield and Long Preston were never S&C stops. They were only served by Leeds-Morecambe trains. Dunno when thy got into S&C train timetables.

Maybe because local people requested it? Hellifield has been in (on most trains) since the stoppers were restored IIRC, and both it and Gargrave have seen significant housing development.

 

[Islandexpress]

Certainly I’ve noticed many passengers embark a Carlisle service at Shipley. Looking at the clothing I’d say well used by walkers and ramblers driving to Shipley and arriving in the dales by rail. Exactly as it should be.

 

[Ken H]

Maybe because local people requested it? Hellifield has been in (on most trains) since the stoppers were restored IIRC, and both it and Gargrave have seen significant housing development.

or maybe because they cut the Skipton Lancaster service down to a 1 train service and the offering at those 3 stations was not enough.

 

[Grumpy]

Gargrave, Hellifield and Long Preston were never S&C stops. They were only served by Leeds-Morecambe trains. Dunno when thy got into S&C train timetables.

I have a clear memory of catching a Peak hauled train for Carlisle at Hellifield in the mid 1960's

 

[70014IronDuke]

Keighley calls are a longstanding feature of the timetable - some of the Glasgow-Leeds trains and overnight St Pancras services were calling in the 1960s ad presumably long before that, while in the case of Shipley stopping there was simply not possible before 1979 as there wasn't a platform on the north side of the triangle until then, even if calls would probably have been desirable in the context of providing connections for Bradford. There is certainly a demand locally for direct S&C trains without a change at Skipton.

You can see what was happening in 1962-63 here http://timetableworld.com/timetable_catalog.php?cat=4 where the London Midland region timetable is archived.

Well, if you take a look at this timetable, it's really striking! If you take out the St Pancras-Glasgow/Edinbughs (3 trains per day e/w_ and the one return Leeds-Glasgow Class 1s, there was not much left on the S&C! In fact, the 'main line' in terms of trains was the Leeds/Bradford to Lancaster G A / Morecambe line!

There was only one through stopping service each way per day Bradford FS - Carlisle, and one return Hellifield - Carlisle stopper. Plus a couple of 'commuter' services at each end of the line. It's kind of Heart of Wales - almost.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I have a clear memory of catching a Peak hauled train for Carlisle at Hellifield in the mid 1960's

Yes. The Thames-Clyde for sure stopped at Hellifield c 1966.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Gargrave, Hellifield and Long Preston were never S&C stops. They were only served by Leeds-Morecambe trains. Dunno when thy got into S&C train timetables.

Ooooh. So dangerous a little word is that - 'never'. Take a look at the timetables posted by jimm in #4. Hellifield was actually quite an important station (for its traffic value) back in the day. And, for what it was worth (given the paucity of trains) - the S&C locals did stop at these stations in 62-63.

I expect that the stopping service improved in the 60s prior to closure, but it really was basic-minimal in 62-63.

 

[Ken H]

Ooooh. So dangerous a little word is that - 'never'. Take a look at the timetables posted by jimm in #4. Hellifield was actually quite an important station (for its traffic value) back in the day. And, for what it was worth (given the paucity of trains) - the S&C locals did stop at these stations in 62-63.

I expect that the stopping service improved in the 60s prior to closure, but it really was basic-minimal in 62-63.

OK. I was a nipper when the S&C locals stopped and all except Settle and Appleby closed. I was referring to the situation in late 70's till after the S&C closure thing. Should have been clearer - sorry

 

[70014IronDuke]

OK. I was a nipper when the S&C locals stopped and all except Settle and Appleby closed. I was referring to the situation in late 70's till after the S&C closure thing. Should have been clearer - sorry

We've all done it (well, I have). I forgive you, at least, Ken H.

 

[Ken H]

Had a google and found this - the website says its 1959,
Just shows what a good service we have now, I suppose.
http://www.ribblevalleyrail.co.uk/Leeds_Carlisle 1959.htm