Settle-Carlisle services stop at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley: why?

[Ken H]

Sorry, I just realised that the topic is Settle, Carlisle rather than Leeds, Morecambe although the case I put for the latter would apply to the former.

except S&C trains are often full of grockles

 

[John B]

Doesn't matter what they are full of.
PUBLIC SERVICE.
Are you a person who looks down on others if they do not meet you social criteria?

 

[xotGD]

I have made countless journeys on this line between Leeds,Lancaster& Morecambe usually on a two car pacer. Not once have I seen standing passengers on a journey, so what would be the commercial sense for a train operator to limit the number of stopping places. There would be a gain of a few minutes in the journey time which would then probably be added to the terminus layover. No saving of a unit and very little, if any saving on crew times.

Try catching the 17.25 from Leeds when the 17.16 Skipton has been cancelled. Rather snug, to say the least.

There are plenty of standees even when the previous service runs.

 

[underbank]

I have made countless journeys on this line between Leeds,Lancaster& Morecambe usually on a two car pacer. Not once have I seen standing passengers on a journey

Nearly every time, I've experienced the Pacer to be rammed with standing passengers at the Leeds end both directions. Usually quiet once you get to the Lancaster end though. I usually get the first of the day towards Leeds and the late afternoon return from Leeds - quite a lot of school pupils and commuters at the Leeds end of the line.

 

[30907]

Standing passengers are normal into and out of Leeds in the peaks, but applies to all trains on the Airedale line. They are pretty rare otherwise.

Apologies, for some reason previous few posts didnt load.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Because that's different, your comparing a lowly regional service to a fast intercity service between major cities, where the stops add a major time penalty

In terms of proportionallity - why is it so different? A stop at Kettering or Wellingborough would add 3 or 4 minutes only to a Sheffield express - and you'd be linking population of 70,000 - 90,000 to those of Sheffield, Derby etc.

But don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating such stops on the MML (at least not on a regular basis throughout the day). I'm just pointing out that Bingley and Keighley get a regular 2 tph to Skipton and Leeds as it is. They can still access services to Carlisle (and Lancaster - though I'm not advocating accelerating the Lancaster trains necessarily) at Skipton.

I am simply asking if there is significant Bingley and Keighley traffic to/from stations beyond Skipton. If not (as I suspect there isn't), why timetable these stops?

I don't see why stopping at Bingley etc is so unnattractive.
It only adds 6 minutes to the journey time, it isn't as if the S&C is exactly fast anyway with barely 60 mph all the way to Carlisle, stopping at every little village...

Well, perhaps that is something that Northern should work on then. But another poster wrote - it does depend on what the purpose of the Leeds - Carlisle service really is meant to do

 

[Ken H]

Doesn't matter what they are full of.
PUBLIC SERVICE.
Are you a person who looks down on others if they do not meet you social criteria?

no. Just pointing out S&C services are a lot busier than the route via bentham. and much of that extra load is grockles. pity as the bentham route has some quite nice scenery.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Intriguingly, Northern are running an extra Sundays only Nottingham - Carlisle through train (15.oo-ish ex Nottingham) and a return Carlisle - Sheffield (18.00-ish ex Carlisle) from the start of the winter timetable.
Both are near enough all stations over the S&C, so not exactly fast, but might help attract some extra passengers, I suppose.

 

[30907]

I am simply asking if there is significant Bingley and Keighley traffic to/from stations beyond Skipton. If not (as I suspect there isn't), why timetable these stops?

In absolute terms, there may not be large numbers of passengers, but in terms of loadings across Skipton, they would be a high enough proportion to justify stopping most of the off-peak trains.
Slightly OT: can anyone work out why the 1519 down stops at both Steeton and Cononley? My guess would be Keighley College traffic...

 

[Barnsley]

I was on the 1220 ex Leeds to Lancaster and 1515 return today, a 3-car 144, and took note of passengers after Skipton, Gargrave, out, nobody, back, 1 off, Hellifield, out nobody, back 1 on, Long Preston, out, 1 off, back, 1 off, Giggleswick, out, 1 off, 2 on, back, 1 off, Clapham, out 1 off, back 1 off, Bentham, out 2 off, 1 on, back 2 off, Wennington, out, 2 on (who bought returns to London) back, nobody. There were less than 20 of us both ways between Skipton and Lancaster

 

[The Lad]

That will have been good commission though

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Shipley is a major interchange station in a densely populated urban area which provides many more connecting services to Forster Square than Keighley or Skipton. It also has connections to Ilkley. So its a no brainier that Leeds - Carlisle/Lancaster services must stop at Shipley.

Shipley is also, in essence, one of Bradford's three "Parkway" stations on different sides of the city, the others being Low Moor and New Pudsey. As such, their main selling point is free car parking.

But if Bradford crossrail were ever to be built, I would advocate running Leeds - Carlisle/Lancaster service via the city centre.

I get the point about local passengers overcrowding long distance services, this being a particular issue on TPE trains between Huddersfield and Leeds. The obvious solution is some sort of fare differential.

 

[Pigeon]

OK. I was a nipper when the S&C locals stopped and all except Settle and Appleby closed. I was referring to the situation in late 70's till after the S&C closure thing. Should have been clearer - sorry

I made a trip up there when it looked like the closure was going to happen in order to bash the line while I still had the chance. 2 trains a day each way, loco hauled Mk 1s, Leeds, Shipley, Saltaire, Bingley, Crossflatts, Keighley, Skipton, Gargrave, Hellifield, Long Preston, Settle, Appleby, Carlisle, and reverse. Same for the next couple of years when they started to put D200 on, and running DMUs in between times which of course stopped everywhere they could.

 

[The Lad]

When did Crossflats open?

 

[quantinghome]

If the intermediate stops were removed between Leeds and Skipton, would the passengers lost by not stopping at those locations be replaced by long distance passengers attracted to a faster service? I'm pretty confident the answer is no.

 

[IanD]

When did Crossflats open?

May 1982

 

[Bantamzen]

I was on the 1220 ex Leeds to Lancaster and 1515 return today, a 3-car 144, and took note of passengers after Skipton, Gargrave, out, nobody, back, 1 off, Hellifield, out nobody, back 1 on, Long Preston, out, 1 off, back, 1 off, Giggleswick, out, 1 off, 2 on, back, 1 off, Clapham, out 1 off, back 1 off, Bentham, out 2 off, 1 on, back 2 off, Wennington, out, 2 on (who bought returns to London) back, nobody. There were less than 20 of us both ways between Skipton and Lancaster

Which probably explains why cutting any of Shipley, Bingley or Keighley out isn't a good idea.

Shipley is a major interchange station in a densely populated urban area which provides many more connecting services to Forster Square than Keighley or Skipton. It also has connections to Ilkley. So its a no brainier that Leeds - Carlisle/Lancaster services must stop at Shipley.

Shipley is also, in essence, one of Bradford's three "Parkway" stations on different sides of the city, the others being Low Moor and New Pudsey. As such, their main selling point is free car parking.

But if Bradford crossrail were ever to be built, I would advocate running Leeds - Carlisle/Lancaster service via the city centre.

I get the point about local passengers overcrowding long distance services, this being a particular issue on TPE trains between Huddersfield and Leeds. The obvious solution is some sort of fare differential.

Add Apperley Bridge to the park & ride list! That's been a victim of it's own success, with there being calls already to add to the car parking.

And you are right about Shipley, its far too big of a catchment area to ignore for services like these (and presumably the LNERs when they start bi-hourly services with the 80xs). However the other issue for the Carlisle / Morecombe services is the risk of simply catching up stoppers between Shipley & Skipton. Even as they are, they land at Skipton only a few minutes behind a stopper, take out the intermediate stops from Leeds & they'd be slowed behind the stoppers anyway, so they may as well call at the larger stations.

 

[trainmananthon]

Having had the experience of working on virtually all S&C services and seeing what they are like, there are only two trains I can think of that this may benefit...

The 0824 Carlisle - Leeds.
Usually full and standing leaving Settle and quite often ends up nearly crush-loaded leaving Skipton. Running this non-stop Skipton - Leeds would stop anyone else from trying to squeeze on to it and thus reduce potential delays on the Aire Valley.

The 1649 Leeds - Carlisle.
Normally crush loaded leaving Leeds with commuters heading to Shipley/Keighley, potentially meaning people travelling north of Skipton are unable to get on. Running non stop would benefit any locals who want to go north of Skipton as they will be able to actually get on board.

The rest of them I would keep as they are. They’re not normally full and standing (unless it’s 2 vice 3) and there’s usually plenty of space onboard anyway.
Plus I know of quite a large number of people who travel from Keighley/Bingley to Settle/Beyond...I would even say they get more heading north than Skipton does!

Although I can’t get my head around why the vast majority of our services now stop at Gargrave/Long Preston now too! Not very often I see anyone get on or off at either stop no matter what weather/season etc. Even more bizarre that the ‘express’ 1E23 which only calls at Appleby/Kirkby Stephen/Settle then calls at Long Preston/Hellifield/Gargrave. Not very express if you ask me...

 

[Adam0984]

There’s a few people get off at Gargrave and Long Preston on the 1649

 

[Ken H]

There’s a few people get off at Gargrave and Long Preston on the 1649

most locals beyond skipton will use cars to get to the station. so you could probably lose the long preston stop and the passengers would drive to hellifield or settle/giggleswick.

there is an hourly bus between Skipton and Settle that goes through Gargrave, Hellifield and long Preston
http://www.kirkbylonsdalecoachhire.co.uk/index.php/bus-services/timetable-580-581-582

 

[Adam0984]

But why when the train can stop and be useful to passengers. Them passengers might be able to walk home from Gargrave or Long Preston so why make them drive or the extra expense of a bus

 

[Ken H]

But why when the train can stop and be useful to passengers. Them passengers might be able to walk home from Gargrave or Long Preston so why make them drive or the extra expense of a bus

I live in that general area. If I go to Leeds I go from Hellifield, even tho I pass stations to get there, there is a caff on the station, parking is fee, and i can get Carlisle or Morecambe trains back. If I go to Carlisle by train, I still go from Hellifield so I get a seat before the mob at settle get on.
Listening to others, many others think the same about using Hellifield

The bus actually goes through all 3 villages with several stops in each. where people actually live. Gargrave and Long Preston are out in the country and Hellifield is a long walk from the main road. Im not sure the railway should be providing a bus service in Craven when communites like Ribblehead, Dent, Garsdale and Kirkby Stephen have hardly any buses. Pity the 580 doesnt start at the train station in Skipton.

 

[30907]

The bus actually goes through all 3 villages with several stops in each. where people actually live. Gargrave and Long Preston are out in the country and Hellifield is a long walk from the main road. Im not sure the railway should be providing a bus service in Craven when communites like Ribblehead, Dent, Garsdale and Kirkby Stephen have hardly any buses. Pity the 580 doesnt start at the train station in Skipton.

Googlemaps gives walking times to the stations from the A65 as: Long Preston 3 min, Hellifield 6 min, Gargrave 7 min. (For non-locals, the A65 is the main village street in each case; the villages are basically linear, and I doubt if anywhere is more than 15 minutes walk from the station, 10 min for Long Preston which is smaller). In urban Shipley, plenty of people walk those sorts of distance to one of the stations (and it's uphill coming home!)
Yes, I would probably use the 580 for a local journey into Skipton or Settle, but not to go further afield, and I can fully understand why increasing numbers of trains stop at the villages. I don't see how cutting those stops would benefit the inhabitants of Dent and Kirkby Stephen (where the stations are far further from the villages), or the users of Ribblehead and Garsdale.

 

[tbtc]

Having had the experience of working on virtually all S&C services and seeing what they are like, there are only two trains I can think of that this may benefit...

The 0824 Carlisle - Leeds.
Usually full and standing leaving Settle and quite often ends up nearly crush-loaded leaving Skipton. Running this non-stop Skipton - Leeds would stop anyone else from trying to squeeze on to it and thus reduce potential delays on the Aire Valley.

The 1649 Leeds - Carlisle.
Normally crush loaded leaving Leeds with commuters heading to Shipley/Keighley, potentially meaning people travelling north of Skipton are unable to get on. Running non stop would benefit any locals who want to go north of Skipton as they will be able to actually get on board

Okay, so you want to remove the West Yorkshire passengers from these services.

There are no spare paths from Leeds to Shipley for additional services to run

There are no spare paths/platforms at Leeds station.

The existing EMUs from Leeds to Skipton are already so busy (despite being extended to four coaches with 3+2 seats, so as many seats as they can have) that Northern are having to order EMUs capable of running in six coach formation to accommodate demand.

There are no spare DMUs to increase all S&C services to (at least) four coaches.

If you run the S&C services non-stop then where do these West Yorkshire passengers current "crush loading" the Sprinters go? It's not as if the 333s on the line are running half-empty with passengers preferring the Sprinters.

If anything, the better use of capacity would be more long EMUs from Leeds to Skipton (with some of the Morecambe/ Carlisle services terminating at Skipton to connect with them). It'd inconvenience the longer distance passengers but there will be a lot more people wanting to get from Leeds to Shipley/ Bingley/ Keighley than there will be for Settle or Appleby. You could then use the same DMU resources so that a Carlisle - Leeds - Carlisle round trip becomes a Carlisle - Skipton - Ribblehead - Skipton - Carlisle diagram (i.e. instead of running the DMU down the Aire Valley, use the time freed up to provide an additional service for Skipton - Settle - Skipton)?

Essentially, how many times more important is one Settle passenger than a Keighley passenger... is it worth providing more seats for Keighley passengers if it means Settle passengers no longer find the train attractive (due to having to change at Skipton)? Or is it worth turfing several Keighley passengers off trains so that one Settle passenger has a guaranteed seat for their journey home?

I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes along with a big Germanic word to describe the ideal situation where each service on the line would have a different classification (and we could split passenger demand between this variety of services etc), but given that we are where we are and there's not much additional capacity in the Aire Valley then what realistic solutions are there?

Because, if we take the Shipley/ Bingley/ Keighley off the S&C services then essentially we are spending millions of pounds on new EMUs so that we can make Aire Valley services six coaches, so that Shipley/ Bingley/ Keighley passengers retain as many seats as possible (with a poorer choice of services) just so that the Settle passengers get a quiet seat to themselves (i.e. all that money but it won't improve things for the larger number of Shipley/ Bingley/ Keighley passengers, just the smaller number of Settle ones.

 

[Ken H]

Its not just Settle though is it. many of the people on those trains are going a long way. I heard someone talking of a trip to Ayr.

Out of kings cross there are the locals that go to peterborough and the long distance trains to Leeds/Edinburgh. So do we stop long distance trains at Welwyn garden city, Stevanage, hitchin, biggleswade and hintingdon to relieve pressure on the locals do we?.

Railways have always done long distance services that stop at fewer stations and stoppers. An express Leeds-Skipton then on to carlisle, with a complimentary all stations leeds- skipton service seems quite reasonable.
The Leeds Skipton service is unrecognisable from what existed in the 1970's. 1 train an hour (Shipley/Bingley/Keighley stops) leeds-Skipton, and an hourly Bradford/Keighley. Add in a few Morecambe services, and 2 loco hauled carlisles and that was it. All 2 car DMU.

The real problem is the services beyond Skipton cover a miltitude of needs, from long distance commuters into W Yorks and Carlisle, People going for days out Just the train ride or to visit or go walking, shopping trips and people making through journeys.

Northern can get plenty of EMU's - there are 319's off lease. or even use 769's on the Leeds-lancaster trains

 

[tbtc]

Its not just Settle though is it. many of the people on those trains are going a long way. I heard someone talking of a trip to Ayr

But what proportion of the demand out of Leeds are the Ayrshire passengers?

Tail wagging dog.

Out of kings cross there are the locals that go to peterborough and the long distance trains to Leeds/Edinburgh. So do we stop long distance trains at Welwyn garden city, Stevanage, hitchin, biggleswade and hintingdon to relieve pressure on the locals do we?.

Railways have always done long distance services that stop at fewer stations and stoppers. An express Leeds-Skipton then on to carlisle, with a complimentary all stations leeds- skipton service seems quite reasonable

You are right regarding Welwyn Garden City, of course.

But we are where we are - passengers for Shipley/ Bingley/ Keighley use the Carlisle/ Morecambe services in large numbers - so removing those stops will inconvenience a large number of people who won't have any additional capacity on the 333 services to fall back on.

So a better comparison would be for GWR services to drop their current stops at Slough/ Reading because these trains should be kept for Penzance/ Swansea passengers - sounds fine in theory but what do we do about the large number of Slough/ Reading passengers?

We aren't starting with a blank sheet of paper, we are dealing with existing demand patterns - it might sound more "reasonable" to run non-stop from Leeds to Skipton but where do the hundreds of Shipley/ Bingley/ Keighley go (since the 333s are already bursting at the seams)?

Northern can get plenty of EMU's - there are 319's off lease. or even use 769's on the Leeds-lancaster trains

I agree that a 319 would be better use of a path from Leeds to Skipton than a Pacer/ Sprinter.

There are 319s off lease, but where are the spare paths through Shipley for additional services? Where are the empty platforms at Leeds?

We can't accommodate eight coach trains in the Aire Valley (without significant platform extensions - no easy given Shipley's triangular nature) and the distribution of electrical equipment in 319s means they can't be simply chopped down to three coaches (to permit doubling up).

 

[Ken H]

Just looked on realtimetrains for Keighley between 1700 and 1800 tonight

There are 6 trains shown
Are you seriously telling me that you cant do more than 6 trains an hour on a double track railway with modern signalling (or is the constraint Leeds station?)

What are the platform lengths at the 3 stations?

Could a compromise be stopping peak hour long distance services in the rush hours, but omitting them the rest of the time. And stop everything at Keighley - which is a far larger town than Bingley or Shipley

 

[Esker-pades]

Just looked on realtimetrains for Keighley between 1700 and 1800 tonight

There are 6 trains shown
Are you seriously telling me that you cant do more than 6 trains an hour on a double track railway with modern signalling (or is the constraint Leeds station?)

What are the platform lengths at the 3 stations?

Could a compromise be stopping peak hour long distance services in the rush hours, but omitting them the rest of the time. And stop everything at Keighley - which is a far larger town than Bingley or Shipley

With the difference in stopping patterns, no.
Leeds to Skipton (most stations) is 40-45 minutes. The limited stop stuff is about 10 minutes faster. When trains are every 15 minutes (half hourly to/from each Leeds and Bradford), then one has to start slowing the faster services down in order for the paths to work.
Add to that all the conflicting moves around Shipley and the platform constaints at Leeds, there suddenly becomes not much space for additional Skipton - Leeds paths, especially of the "express" type from Carlisle.

 

[Adam0984]

But why when the train can stop and be useful to passengers. Them passengers might be able to walk home from Gargrave or Long Preston so why make them drive or the extra expense of a bus

Tonight’s stats from the 1649
Gargrave 15 off, 1 on
Hellifield 10 off, 0 on
Long Preston 7 off, 2 on

So I think it’s worth stopping

 

[northernchris]

Just looked on realtimetrains for Keighley between 1700 and 1800 tonight

There are 6 trains shown
Are you seriously telling me that you cant do more than 6 trains an hour on a double track railway with modern signalling (or is the constraint Leeds station?)

The signalling on the Aire Valley is poor considering the traffic it gets. It could do with an upgrade to allow more trains to run as it's quite common for the semi fasts to crawl along behind a stopper